Hello Wade,
I have been enjoying surfing through the "Circus no spin" blog from time to time. I sure enjoyed seeing the postcard with Dick Wallen. He is a good friend.
I have a question for you. I like to dink around with my Liberty horses and one of my horses came up with a trick basically on his own.
It started out with several horses with their front feet on revolving pedestal with another horse on the ground trotting figures of eight or a serpentine pattern around them. Then one day my # 1 decided to start doing the pattern around the pedestal horses while walking backwards. Now he will do a figure-of-eight ( around two horses) or a double ( around three or four) on the pedestals completely at Liberty while walking either forward or backwards.
Ringling's Blue unit is in town this week and Daniel Raffo (their tiger trainer) came out to spend the day yesterday. He told me he had never seen that trick before which got me thinking. Has anybody had a similar trick in a Liberty act?
The only thing at all similar I have seen is a youtube clip posted by Benny Schumann with Pauline showing four horses on small pedestals set in a square pattern with a solo horse executing an"in-and-out" while moving forwards.
I have been enjoying surfing through the "Circus no spin" blog from time to time. I sure enjoyed seeing the postcard with Dick Wallen. He is a good friend.
I have a question for you. I like to dink around with my Liberty horses and one of my horses came up with a trick basically on his own.
It started out with several horses with their front feet on revolving pedestal with another horse on the ground trotting figures of eight or a serpentine pattern around them. Then one day my # 1 decided to start doing the pattern around the pedestal horses while walking backwards. Now he will do a figure-of-eight ( around two horses) or a double ( around three or four) on the pedestals completely at Liberty while walking either forward or backwards.
Ringling's Blue unit is in town this week and Daniel Raffo (their tiger trainer) came out to spend the day yesterday. He told me he had never seen that trick before which got me thinking. Has anybody had a similar trick in a Liberty act?
The only thing at all similar I have seen is a youtube clip posted by Benny Schumann with Pauline showing four horses on small pedestals set in a square pattern with a solo horse executing an"in-and-out" while moving forwards.
The gal schooling the serpentine backward was here for a few days earlier this year. She works for Big Horse Productions out of Las Vegas.
We named the young buckskin Lusitano colt after Tabajara Maluenda when he came out last year.
regards,
Allen Pogue
Dripping Springs, Texas
www.imagineahorse.com
Allen,
Thank you for you nice letter and photo's and welcome to circusnospin. We will look forward to your comments and insight. Yes, Dick Wallen produced some great horse act's in his time. "Has anybody had a similar trick in a Liberty act?" Forward, yes Allen. As a rule done with a pony around bigger horses, or different species. The big/little act I trained for Ringling a number of years ago had three mini's doing figure 8's around 4 Belgiums on pedestals, while the 4th mini ran around the ring curb. I trained a similar behavior in an act for Raul Rodriques with 7 white miniature stallions in which 6 stood on pedestals and a 7th ran figure 8's around then, then waltzed around each on individually. The hardest part was getting the individual horse's to stay on the pedestals, away from each other, and not bolt and run to their buddy each time they were alarmed or startled. A similar behavior is done on the show I am currently training a new tiger act for in which 3 Bactrian camels stand on pedestals and 3 zebras figure 8 around them. Backwards is a different deal and I don't think a "circus audience" would have the patience to sit there and wait for the behavior to be completed as I assume it takes much longer then a horse trotting forward.
You mention that you have named your buckskin Lusitano colt after Taba. Am I too assume that it's name is Azucar? :)
Wade
Posts
23 comments:
I have used variations with hoofed stock on pedestals and others doing various figure eights, voltes, serpentines in and around them. Usually a minihorse is excellent for the b one on the ground. Note you use all horses and I personally believe that is not as effective. I used a zebra around camels and llamas that was really nice. For the nfinale they then wheeled together and then did the turn out exit. My daughter now with Cole Bros. does alot with various exotics. all quite effective. I would refer to your back aroujnd as a "free trick" but doubt if it is very audience appealing. The best way to do allthese maneuvers around pedestals is for those animals to stand on all fours. Takes more training but looks good. Jack Joyce did it with his original four camels and pony stallion. Also then the little one cannot duck under the legs when it should'nt. I never heard nof you. What is your background? Always nice to hear or see someone interested in Liberty training. Let me know more. Thanks, John Herriott
. TanglefootLooks like you do "liberty" in one of those "can't jump out of the ring set ups". I would not stretch the imagination by calling that "liberty". Just an observation from an old camper who hasd been in the trenches. Your pedestals are big enough for elephants. I doubt if prop boys would enjoy humping them in and out of the ring. Especially when they have to jump the fence. Welcome to the "real circus" Tanglefoot
Alan is something of a self styled guru on various trick horse discussion boards. He wows the uninformed young girls on there,but doesn't take critisism well. In one picture he posted, he labeled it a levade when it was actually just a picture taken as the horse came down from a rear, and not one of the others even noticed it. He knows how to make his horses do a variety of things, but hasn't learned that there are some things that just make his horses look foolish - i.e. just because they can doesn't mean they should. I got a kick out of one of his commentaries after he saw the Freisan/Arab/Palamino act on Ringling where he was explaining how (I believe it was Sasha Houke) trained the finish Palamino with a target stick and clicker LOL. Alan could do well if he wasn't so sure he already knows everything there is to know.
Anonymous,
You had some valid point's and I wish I could have posted your comment, but you didn't sign with your name. We don't allow "anonymous" or "cute name" folks to cast aspersion's at another here on circusnospin. We are not about that. If you think what you have to say is truthful and valid, you should have no problem signing with your name. If you would like to email me at wadeburck@yahoo.com with an introduction and a reasonable reason why it is necessary for you to remain anonymous and still think you have an opinion. I will post you if you will do that please. All people have a right to address their opponent's and most importantly know who those opponents are. Thank you.
Wade Burck
Hello John H.
I have certainly heard of you, my good friend Don Anderson has mentioned your name many times.
The "back around" move often elicits suprize and hoots of "No way" from the audience. The element that adds quite a lot is the revolving pedestals, the horse on the pedestal rotates in sync with the horse on the ground and when done right hangs his head over the back of the horse on the ground. My #1 horse is quite snappy with this move and keeps it fast paced. There seems to be a genuine sense of satisfaction from him when he does it correctly.
Backing around a single horse with all fours up is relatively easy to accomplish, getting the horses all working together is a challenge, but the hard part is when the horse on the ground has to change the bend in his body and shift his focus from one horse to another when executing the figure of eight backwards.
My (so called) background is that in the 80's I inheritated a growing band of backyard Arabians.The aging owner was a contemporary of J. Frank Dobie and we lived on the banks of Onion Creek in South Austin (Texas). This was the same geographic location mentioned in Dobie's book "The Mustangs" as the home ground of the legendary "Pacing White Stallion". The aging owner was a retired professor of Western Literature from Univ. of Texas lent me a book titled "Horses of the Sahara". Written in 1859 it detailed many arcane aspects of the Bedouin life with horses and the training of colts. This book got me thinking and I had plenty of horses to practice with. I happened to acquire Chuck Grant's book on Haute e'cole by mistake, thinking it was about dressage. His approach and understanding that no matter what a horse's ultimate discipline or 'job' the teaching of a few tricks is beneficial made sense to me and so it only took about ten years to figure out what I wanted to do. I let my custom furniture making business wind down as the herd grew in size. When the old man died I moved off the creekside property to hilltop four miles south and spent the next ten years figuring out how to train horses with respect and with their longterm benefit foremost in my mind. I had to, I did not have extra horses (or money) to replace the two I was able to acquire from the estate. In the mid-90's I was 'gifted' with an extraordinary Russian Arabian mare that I immediately bred to my stallion Hasan and again the next year giving me two daughters that formed the nucleus of my first real Liberty act. When I turned 50 in the year 2000 after much relentless urging from PJ Oliver we appeared at a horse expo in Ft Worth for the first time. PJ was the owner of White Fox, trained by Mark Smith he was a movie horse in the 60's and even though a gelding, he played the part of Mr. Ed's girlfriend (some things in Hollywood never change) .. At that time Hasan was 14 years of age and PJ knew he would not be around forever.He was quite expert at airs above the ground and other baroque gaits which we included in the show.
Another strong influence was Margo Smith/Shallcross who I met by accident in Manny Gammage's Texas Hatters shop. Margo was the gal that presented Cass ole after he starred in the Black Stallion movie. She sat me down and allowed me to watch old VHS tapes of Cass being schooled by Glenn Randall and some of their performances. With few words of advice from her I then went home and 'discussed' the subject with Hasan. He taught me most everything I really needed to learn, which was to provide an enriched environment, don't be in a hurry, stay out of his way and be observant of new behaviors.
(end of part one)
(part two)
In 2003 I made the acquaintance of Sacha Houcke and he most graciously allowed me to observe his practice sessions when Ringling's Red Unit came to central Texas every other year. I would meet them in Austin, San Antonio or College Station. Two years is a long time between meetings, but it gave me time to practice. I had to figure out how to create Liberty routines without the assistants Sacha uses. The solution was to let the horses become my assistants.. With my background in furniture building making stage props was easy. Boosting them in and out of the ring is not, so we have an act that includes a Liberty sorting routine mixed with tricks. The horses set on bean bags, climb multi-level pedestals and manouver/guide big balls with their nose in precision patterns. It is not exactly traditional circus, but it is interesting.
In public we perform in a 45 to 50 ft diameter portable ring, a ribbon of pennants when outside and an 18" wide cloth banner stretched between stands when indoors out of the wind. The picture the other fellow commented about was taken in our backyard with the horses in a practice ring.
If he thinks those revolving pedestals are big he otter come try to boost a new one I made this week. The top is 23" in diameter and 4.5" thick. It spins on a square plywood pedestal. The idea here will be for twomhorses to mount it facing each other and hang their heads across the other horse's back. Then they will rotate while the horse on the ground circles in the opposite direction.
Personally I do not like the skeleton look of the round aluminum elephant pedestals and the overly small revolving ones they use are so tiny that they sorta
dissappear. We use the pedestals as part of the show so they need well made, freshly painted and visible even for the folks in the back row.. We have a special set built out of light weight material that also comes apart for travel.
Well, that ought to fill in a few blanks. I would certainly like to make your acquaintance, Don speaks very highly of your talents and experience.
warm regards,
Allen Pogue
Dripping Springs, Texas
www.imagineahorse.com
Allen,
FYI Tanglefoot is also the illustrious Col. John Milton Herriott. All due respect, "I had to figure out how to create Liberty routines without the assistants Sacha uses" you found the solution real easy. Enclose the horse's in a round pen. That eliminate the need for a lot of assistants. In a one ring circus situation, you have a living round pen of paying assistant's. In a three ring building situation you have a very different set of circumstances and the dynamic's of that situation are something that many lesser skilled trainers could not master. Note the picture posted a few day's ago of the great Jorgen Christenson with his Palomino act out in a open ring, in a open field outside the tent. It take's a real master to keep the horse's in the two foot high ring and not have them all over the field. Inside a round pen is a "no brainer." Where are they going to go/run too if they panic? No place, as the round pen contains them.
I would also bet dollar to donuts that Sascha never had the need for a target stick and clicker. His skill's as a liberty horse trainer are way, way beyond the use of a target and clicker. That's for the amateurs, hence it's current popularity, who don't have to time or savvy to develop the skill's that Sascha has developed over a lifetime.
Wade Burck
I saw Allen Pogue's act in Southern CA at the horse expo a couple years ago. I found it very slow and talkie and was horrified that he would take the glorious horse and set him on a bean bag. As with most amateurs his talk is long and I departed after ten minutes. Sorry but that's what I saw.
He also stated there was a horse that played Mr Ed's girl friend, no big feat mine played Mr. Ed's French suitor for his girlfriend's affections.So....a rather strange thing to say about a series that is long, long gone and hardly took any training. Seems like Mr. Pogue is throwing names around.
I do not know Mr Pogue I am stating what I saw and what I am reading
Madame Col.
You and I have always agreed that making a horse sit up on anything, bean bag, pedestal, or ground is not visually appealing and makes a majestic creature like the horse look silly and ridiculous. Next to the bow, one of the easiest things to teach a horse. But at what cost, his dignity and beauty. Again, just our opinion, but that's how we see it.
I met a hell of a Charro a few weeks ago, when I was out scouting toro head mounts. He has ranched in the area all his life and on Sunday's he goes into the city center in Teoloyucan and pick's up a few peso's doing rope spinning for the folks. He was kind enough to agree to teach me the art, and three night's a week I meet him at his rancho to get schooled. It's a hell of a lot harder then it look's, let me tell you. I blistered my forefinger and thumb before I finally mastered a simple figure 8 roll. As soon as I become sufficiently proficient, here's what I have in mind Madame Col., if Robin is game and up for it. I would like to do a "Rex Rossi Tribute Tour(how's that for a dropped name?" I need you to start booking it ASAP and get the Chew Meister tuned up. First thing you need to do is contact the Gene Autry(boom!!!! Another name dropped) Museum and see if you can get Rex's white saddle back for a year or two. I'll look for somebody to do a drag in the mean time. I may be able to pull off eventually standing on Robin's back and lassoing you and Chew as you gallop by, but I know my fat old ass won't drag anything, let alone get it back into the saddle. Before you start a beef about what should be lettered on the side of the trailer's, let me be clear in reminding you that B come's before O or R in the alphabet and it is only fair that it be Burck-Olds Rossi Productions. I'll handle any nitwits that try to call it the BOaR Show!!!!!
Be safe, friend
Wade
The palomino that was mentioned in an earlier comment was named Velasquez. He was originally trained by Freddie Knie Jr. and was first presented at Ringling by Hans Ludwig Suppmeier. I believe the horse was killed by another in a tragic accident coming off the circus train. If I am mistaken on any of this, PLEASE correct me!
I have Allen's liberty training videos-when he refers to assistants, I believe he is referring to "tricks" like having half the group thread the needle without grooms to help lead the horses in the initial stages. Personally, I have never tried this, so I can't say whether help would be necessary. If anyone knows how to do this, please share--I would be VERY grateful!!
Lastly, a question-has anyone ever trained a rear without having assistants holding lunges on the sides? I am just curious because I have only seen it started once without assistants.
Thank you,
Chris
(A fan of liberty acts)
Chris,
We have trained quite a few horses to rear without assistants.. A few years ago a college in Florida sent me three Appaloosa horses as replacement prospects for their football pregame show at their college.
Appys can be tough so getting through the resistance (when asking for something completely new for an adult horse) is challenging.
The way we approach it is to give the horse something to do (that can be shaped into a rear) that the horse quickly learns to enjoy.. That 'something' is first stepping up onto a pedestal and then little by little ask him to pick up both front feet at the same time and 'stomp' them down .. something about the stomp they like.. in time you can put acue on the horse's shoulder thatbindicates to him to hesitate before the stomp. It is that hesitation that becomes a proper balanced rear.
Another avenue is the use of a climbing wall.. This is a heavy plank structure with cleats attached crossways, like rungs of a ladder. The assembly is firmly attached to a wall or overhead beam .. it needs to be about nine feet tall . It is slanted at about a 10 degree angle ..
With this structure you can begin to get a horse used to climbing and ultimately placing his feet as high his as his head and higher. It allows the horse to assume the pose without emotional baggage.
Allen
Thank you for the information Allen-very interesting!
-Chris
Wade, no need to post this, but you can see from Allen's post the type of hooey he espouses.
Why would anyone go through all the climbing up walls crap, when most horses will go into a rear in the first practice without all the hoopla. This dude needs to start learning from scratch before he goes out giving lessons and lectures.
Howdy Mr Burck,
Thought I would send this to you in hopes you would post it.
I know that we are supposed to introduce ourselves before we post. My name is Riz, aka The Turban Cowboy. First I want to thank you for your blog. I have enjoyed this site along, with Circopedia for some time now.
I am just a backyard horse lover who has always loved the Circus and feel very blessed to be part of your blog where so many talented trainers get together and discuss great topics.
Your website is a TREASURE!
Mr Herriot, I am a big fan of yours and of your daughter…She and I are friends on Facebook.
I have known Dianne via the phone and internet for several years now, I am a huge fan of Albert Ostermaier and have studied his methods with great passion and I have taken it as my Duty to make sure the names of those who have gone before us live on in our own stories.
I have also been mentored by Allen Pogue for close to a decade as well as a three or four others including Olympic Riders and multi generation Exhibition Trainers. I have tried to learn from as many as I could find. This past month I was lucky enough to be able to spend some time with a fifth generation circus trainer who was very generous and open with information, My passion is horses and anything to do with training them as well as producing shows. Primarily my background is in Music Venues which I started promoting while I was still in High School until a few years ago when health issues forced me to retire. Great concerts with lots of hot women an too much partying took their toll on my already weak immune system and I had to take a break, but I still dabble in a few Equestrian Extravaganza style shows including one that I am producing that I hope to debut this Spring.
Riz continued:
As long as we are expressing our opinions openly I wanted to politely add my perspective.
Allen is not name dropping. Its not his style. What he is doing, and has instilled him me to do, is to proudly tell others who he has admired and learned from. He is the first to give credit to the great Circus trainers who pioneered the study of Equestrian Behavior when he lectures at places like Texas A&M, the “Nations leading Equine Veterinary School) and writes for several Equine Publications.
Every time he shows a trick he will mention where he picked it up. All of us are going to die and many a great circus trainer already has, it is our memories that allow them to live forever. Too often we see people who try to act like they invented a training method that in reality was taught to them by a master and they simply changed a couple of minor details to suit themselves and take credit for it all.
I always say that there are three things people will never agree on-Religion, Politics and Horse Training.
There are “tricks” or ways to perform “tricks” that we will disagree with each other on.
Diane, your horses are always well groomed,you pay a lot of attention to detail in the costumes your performances are fast paced and exciting.
However, if we are going to be giving a lecture to the public and educating public then it will have to be more of a lecture or long on talk as you put it.
Allen is not there as a Performer in the traditional sense. He is not out to wow the crowd and leave them wondering as to how it is done, but rather to demonstrate how training can be used establish communication and a better relationship with our horses.
Your daughter, Heidi, is currently producing some horse training videos and I am sure she will agree that when explaining things to the general public we have to be sure to break each piece down in a manner that facilitates learning. As Glen Randall used to say. “People don’t listen and they get themselves or their horses hurt.” It is the instructors job to make sure each concept is thoroughly explained.
Riz continued:
The pedestals and tricks are tools to study and understand horse behavior and their learning process. To make the world a better place for horses. Allen once told me that the horse drug mans sorry butt out of the stone age, now it is our turn to give something back to them.
Mr Herriot the pedestals are not there to show how small of one a horse can get on… I have some pictures laying around of his horse Hassan walking on a 6 inch wide hitching post with all four hooves and Hassan’s son standing on a Pedestal with all four that was 8 by 11 inches. No big deal just good progressive training and Allen does that kind of stuff for fun and no doubt to enhance and test his own relationships, but for the crowd…the crowd needs to see that this is possible for them to learn. That they can do it too. Of course you are right Mr Herriot, if one was performing in a fast paced show smaller lighter pedestals would be better. You have no doubt hear the old saying “Horses for Courses”, think of Imagine A Horse as “Courses for Horses and the people who love them”.
What Allen does is use pedestals to give the horse (flight animal) a safe place to run to.
We may not all be so lucky as to work in a Circus and come from generations of Circus Horsemen but there are many who would like to have some Circus fun in their backyards just as a weekend athlete knows he will never win a Master’s Jacket or the Super Bowl. Its still fun to throw around a football on the weekends, and we don’t have to be the best to play our best! Every day I wake up and all I want to do is to be better than myself. Nothing more!
Guys like Allen Poque help us live those dreams and makes the world a better place for the horse.
As per the what we like and don’t like. People will always disagree and when the subject is something they are passionate about then they will disagree passionately.
You don’t like horses sitting on bean bags and believe it or not there are movements that Allen doesn’t like. He once taught me how to ask a horse to walk around on his knees like they do in the drunk horse act. Then he told me he would appreciate it if I never taught it to anyone else and never performed the movement in public. I said ok…but why. He replied because it makes the horse look like he is groveling and training should be to make a horse more beautiful.
I personally don’t like the hello and no trick, I find it to be a little stupid and in poor taste, that is my opinion. Mr Herriot your daughter who is a far better horse trainer than I could ever hope to be teaches that trick. I don’t dislike her for that. We can agree to disagree.
I don’t find my horse bowing as demeaning. Do you not bow after a performance? I don’t know about you but I don’t bow out of submission, but to show my appreciation for the adoration of my fans and their applause.
Riz continued:
Dianne you have toured your performed your entire life. You learned from the Great Albert Ostermaier and his showmanship lives on through you. You like the masks on the horses, for me…I don’t see what Darth Vader or Iron Man has to do with horsemanshipo but you play to the crowd as all performers must. I don’t fault you for it, but I wouldn’t be caught dead dressed up like I was going trick or treating for a show.
You are an accomplished Piaffe trainer and I think your Passages are spectacular. I have always admired your seat, I think it is one of the most pure and correct dressage seats that I have ever seen. Still there are many who find fault in your training/riding. Like we said everyone has an opinion.
If I was forced to comment I would say that I don’t find the Spanish Walk you train to be correct, I would consider it more of a Spanish paw. and the walk is not pure, I also find it amateurish when I see someone riding with two whips. Just my opinion and i fyou are happy with it and it doesnt harm the horse in any way then so be it.
You have far more experience than I do and you have likely forgotten more than I will ever learn. I am sure you have good reason to do Spanish Walk the way you do. I am just coming up with an example to show that while we are not always going to agree with eachother on everything I think our Passion for Horses can be a great tool for diplomacy and sharing of knowledge.
Now I am going to go back to lurking and learning.
Respectfully,
Riz
Riz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRc6r32z0eY&feature=player_embedded
Wade about our new venture the Rex Rossi Tribute hummmm. Did I hear you say you wanted to replicate Rex's big loop act. You will have to practice spinning the rope around Robin at a cantor then stop in the middle stand up in the saddle and in the center of the arena drop the rope and style with both hands. Then take off around the arena and do a running dismount with your hat in your hands.....so far sounds great. What is your finale??? How about a two rope Texas Skip.
As far as you roping Chewy and I make a really big loop to go over the big 17 hand horse and remember to run along side awhile hat in hand so while I slow down so you don't trip Chewy and I. So far so good, are you tired yet? Oh on the billing not to worry you are doing all the work sort of like GGW so you deserve it, can't wait to see the practicing while I am sitting on the fence. LOL
Madame Col.,
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Put a spur stop in it, gal!!!!! I didn't say I even dreamed of being half as talented as Rex Rossi. I just want to give folk's a "taste" of what it was he did. Then they can go on and with a little work, be as great as he was.(How's that for an alibi? I learned it from the army of horse whisper's out there. Step right up, buy my super deluxe carrot/target stick and lead rope set along with my 12 disk dvd program titled "Shuck's" and you to can be Col. Alois Podhajsky in no time.
Instead of ragging on me, see what you can do to get ATM machines set up. Geez......
Wade
Wade oh now I get ya, I'm a little slow sometimes. Yea I will keep those ATM's oiled and ready to go, should be a slam dunk, money falling from heaven.
Riz,
In regards to your video clip, FYI the real art is not to collect the horse, and the real art is not to make the horse supple. The real art is to collect the horse while making him supple. :)
Wade
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