Compare this tape to the tape below. As long as I have been training animals, I have been told, "the people can't tell the difference!!!!!" I think the people who keep saying that are wrong, and that anybody can tell the difference. Look at the horse above doing the same thing with the exception to the Jambette as the horse in the the last thread. The horse below is trained to a standard, and the horse above is trained to a "do what works." The video below show's how they train this horrid horrid movement. This is a beautiful horse below who does not deserve this. But someone owns him, there is no standard, so the people can do what they want. That is a good fast way to become a "soft target."
Thursday, February 12, 2009
In additon to the horse's color/breed, this is the exact opposite of ligtht and soft in the video below
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Wade G. Burck
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14 comments:
Wade - I think the second video of the extremely stressed horse in the crossties is appalling. Judging from the hole his back feet are in, they must practice this a lot. Between the hole, the stress and the fact that he keeps hitting his back feet on the pole, this must be one sore horse at the end of a "training" session.
Jeannie
Jeannie,
The ground has got to be hard also. Look at the rocks. I promise the sole's of his feet tender when he is finished. You would be amazed at how many "animal lovers" are impressed with the "Baladore" dancing, and think it is really something, not even looking at the animal, just what it is doing. Look at the Friesian being ridden. You know what a slashing tail means. Add that to the behind the bit mouth, the changing tempo of the back feet in the "piaffe," and worse the height of the back feet with all the weight on the front end and it is amazing that people will see that and not be appalled. It is obvious to a blind man neither of these are happy horses. You can distinguish very easy, a horse nervous with a desire to do be perfect, and one nervous because it doesn't have a clue what is expected of it. One point's to heart and great schooling, and the other points to a broken will and abuse.
Wade
Video #2 - got to 33 seconds, couldn't watch any more.
I see no whipping or other contact abuse. Digging that hole is not unusual in the situation. The Piaffe.Passage will eventually get corrected, but it is a great training beginning. It all takes time. I cannot be critical but it doesn't look bad to me.
Johnny I don't believe what you just said. Number one the passage will never be corrected on the Friesian due to the extreme dipping of the head and spitting out of the bit causing the horse to go up with his hind legs instead of forward (the only way to correct the Passage). This horse is beyond fixing or trust and is being driven unmercifully by very large sharp spurs. I have had way too many of these Mexican broke horse and know what I speak of, their minds are blown and they are terrified of whips,movement and all have a general distrust of humans. In a few words they have been brutalized.
The Andalsuian Piaffe horse is ghastly and I am horrified that anyone would think it was a good start. Again the horse has been brutalized easily seen in his desperate attempt to do anything to get away from the whip including moving sideways to try and see if he is going to be beat (which he is).They are put into the cross ties and then whipped until they start moving, since they are crossed tied and can go no where they start what the Mexicans think is Piaffe and they must do so for unlimited time. Once this is put under saddle these horses are ridden in Piaffe and Passage until the foam rolls off their shoulders. Most will do it great outside the show arena but once inside it is mayhem because of the added factor of excitement, the riders spurring for the trick and the horse? he has no trust in anyone. I have seen it over and over again and my heart goes out to them but it seems to be standard practice among the Mexican trainers. This is not guessing this is from actual visual observation on my part as I came from Southern California and the Mexican trainers are prevalent in that area and I have been a judge at their competitions. I also had many of these so called trained horses to try and rehabilitate, Wade can attest to one beautiful red Andalusian stallion I had in Wisconsin. Of course you can see no whipping abuse on the tape, they aren't going to video that.
Didn't want to rage on but this happens to be a pet peeve of mine and has nothing to do with the Mexican people, I have many good Mexican friends but I am horrified at the abuse and lack of knowledge of the Mexican trainers. That is not to say their are not a few knowledgeable ones, I just as yet have not seen them.
Madame Col. and Col. Herriott,
I was waiting for somebody else to comment first, as I too could not believe what I was reading. I saw the training pillars at the SRS. I didn't see a hole or a rut. In fact unless you saw a horse in the pillars you couldn't guess which way they faced him, North or South. Abuse tends to be equated to "physical" because it is visual. We don't need to see a whip being used. We only need look closely at the horse to see that he knows full well what a whip is, even without it being "held, but not used" by the person behind. I note he is unhook from the pillars on the right side and held with a rope. We can assume he has charged out of the pillars a time or two, and flipped backwards. The more subtle and damaging abuse that occurs in all animal training and is not so obvious to most is the mental abuse, or confusion due to inconsistency and incompetence of the trainer/handler/presenter. Never, never, ever, ever, will fast or getting it done quick produce anything more then a caricature of the original intent. Quick is where the worst abuses, mental and physical, are combined to produce a shaking, quivering, flinching, gagging object of pity.
I have always equated it to teaching a child to walk. We let them do it at their own speed and mental and physical ability. If they take one tottering step we love and encourage one more. If it is not forthcoming we wait until next time. We do not hit, kick, whip, force, demand more steps. If they fall, we pick them up, love them and let them go back and regroup their thoughts and regain their confidence. We are in no more of a hurry then they are. They are building confidence, and we are encouraging the building of that confidence. Eventually they are running without our help or the help of any supporting structure, because we have encouraged, aided, and shown them, and then let them discover it themselves.
In any training culture or animal discipline with out a defined standard, abuse is prevalent. In an effort to be better then "Juan Diego" they will push harder and fiercer then "Juan Diego," maybe losing sight of the fact that "Juan Diego" wasn't that good and what he produced wasn't that good, but with out a standard there is no good or bad. Sadder is if the public encourages through ignorance of the end result at the "Charro" Festivals.
Yes, I remember the the beautiful Red Andalusian well. Piaffe was his escape from reality, his comfort zone if asked for a little more, or if confused. He had a hard time given his background accepting that anything new was not going to hurt, either mentally or physically.
When there is a standard, even the "big names" will be called into question if they use method's which go against that standard or the intention of the end result. Anky Van Grusen and her use and advocating of Rollkur is a prime example. A "big name" Arabinan Halter trainer breaking the rule, and being suspended for 5 years is another. A "big name" Arabian performance trainer being suspended for one year for rule infractions is another.
Wade
Wade, as you are quite aware. In training and especially in horses, we try to not let them become unsettled during this learning procedure, but it is unavoidable during training times and the horse will resort to a defence of some sort; either running backwarde or sideways, rearing and lungeing ahead or gett ing into a piaffer or passage and refusing to get out. Every trainer goes thru this and it takes alot of skill, patienceand resourcefulllness to get back on track and continue on. It can be very serious and I am surprised at your generic comment in reghard to training in some lalaland.
Dianne, you know that in initial training that the horse may have a start but it is a beginning but needs to be perfected. However,say, we have the elementary beginning of a march, piaffer, passage, etc,. Maybe the march starts with that little shuffle that we must eliminate [more common with Arabs] or a too high or low passage, piaffer, etc. but it is what we are looking for and know that it will be a crude beginning and of course every horse is different. In my training days I would accept that between the posts piaffer and the high behind passage and go on from there. I do certainly not take back my comment and I am quite aware of the cruel Mexican, Spainish and Portageses horsemanship, but they get the job done, just like those horrible Romainian gymnastic trainers with pre teen little girls and those Mongolian teachers of young girls in contortion. What is the difference?
Col. Herriott,
It is not unavoidable unless we go to fast or to hard. Any animal can be force/pushed into and through something. The slower and easier it is done, the less we run into unavoidable situations. Rearing, running sideways, getting into a piaffe and not getting out, are for the most part avoidable if the horse is not force/pushed into that area with the slow building of confidence and ability. It takes more skill and patience to not get into those situations, then it does to get out of them.
LaLa land is much better for the animal physically/mentally in the long run.
Wade
Bullshit again. There are times in every training procedure when the animal rebells at some particular movement, or behavior, as it is now called, simply because it is something they do not want to do, as si8mple as being tethered, and they will use a defense of some sort. Don't you dare tell me that you have never had a horse do in defense what I have suggested and that in training wild animals you have not encountered the same. As for more patient time, when they absolutely refuse from word go all the time in the world will not solve the situation. As I always say. "A good trainer always carries an Ace In THe Hole", but you never play the Ace, because if you do you have exhausted all of your repitore and have resorted to total frustaration and that is a nono. A good trainer knowes what they are going to do before they do it. BEEN THERE AND HAVE DONE IT.
Johnny,
Of course I have run into those situations. A lot of them 34 years ago, but very few today, and not near as severe as they were 34 years ago, because now I know they are coming, and I avoid them.
Rebel is a very broad word, it can mean questioning "why do I have to go to the doctor, he scares me," to a full scale tantrum kicking and screaming on the floor. They are all forms of rebellion. If we take the time, and help them understand why they have to do something they may not understand that may scare them, they don't resort to the tantrum and the only option open is dragging them kicking and screaming to the doctor.
I always say, a good trainer doesn't need an ace in the hole, he can win with what is showing.
As you suggest "A good trainer knowes what they are going to do before they do it." Which is why they avoid the tantrum, instead of driving through it, eliminating a need for an ace up the sleeve.
Wade
I know nothing of gymnastic trainers as my field is horses. Yes all can start in one form or the other however you did not address the way the horse was ridden and how you would expect to change the big jumps behind. I do think there is a difference in training by brute force and by knowledge as the end result in the Mexicans are unable to keep their horses working due to the added excitement and lack of trust by the horse; the result is absolute scrambling mayhem. I have seen it over and over again and if not believed join the audience sometime at a Mexican Charro event and judge for yourself, it is at most an amateurish attempt with desperate horses.
Whoa Johnny, if I had reactions as you described I would be in serious trouble and would have to rethink my methods. Perhaps your training methods have reactions this big but at the first sight of this I would be backing off and trying a different approach for my body's sake and my horse's mind. It may be "la la" land in your world but not in mine.
Johnny, not Col.,
Horses/animals are much better judges of the education they receive then their owners/trainers. Similar to children, they usually like the person who gives them clear boundaries, keeps their body exercised, their mind entertained and their emotions at peace.
Wade
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