The following video was put together by a group of people that at one time were supporters and activists with People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA). PETA claimed that the circus trainers taught their animals tricks by beating them into submission, so they decided to go undercover at circuses and catch this on film. When they investigated though, they found that there was no animal abuse at the circus, they found that the animals and trainers had a deep bond and love for each other. In this video you will see how circus animals are really treated.
"This is incredible. Has anybody heard of the group know as "The Real Circus?" As you see they used to be activists for Peta, and then had a "change" of heart, and went undercover to document the "facts". I don't know how long they were "undercover" but there is a photo of a guy on the clip, that quit working in 1982. The clip is full of that. This is truly embarrassing and I pray it is not our answer to the "false/doctored video that the activists do run. That would really be an invalidating pity for this profession I love."
Friday, January 2, 2009
The Real Circus????????????????
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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66 comments:
LOL. There's nobody who would love to "turn" an undercover activist and take them public more than I would. (I'm still pretty pissed off over my own appearance on YouTube.) But this ain't that. There's no video here. And there are no activists. Great picture of Paul and Diane. Nice picture of Gustavo Parra playing in the creek and such. But where is the testimony? And where's the "training?" Unfortunately even when we counter program we sometimes forget that hiring somebody to at least pretend to be the "former activist" might give the project some verisimilitude. Though I'm afraid the creator might not be aware of that term -- which is everything when you're playing "spin doctor."
Ben,
If you want to fix, the youtube deal, find out who this group of sad sacks is and shut them down. If you think this is a shame, read the review of animals in zoo that the Gung ho I love animals in the circus informed individual posted on Show Biz Daves site endorsing captive animals in the circus by have the zoo animals tell him their life sucked.
I just don't get the putz's sometime. They are going to with it and for us right in the shit can with those kinds of things.
Wade
I know the girl that created the video. Her name is Shelley Beitzel. I agree pretty much with everything that both you and Ben say. Her heart was in the right place but I fear that the video could do more damage then good.
Logan
That's a slide show put together by Logan Jacot
Logan, if she really was an undercover investigator who had a change of heart -- and if she included a video segment explaining that change of heart -- then it would a bit different. Honestly I think that an activist with an open mind could spend time around animal people and decide that while they disagreed with some things, much of what they'd been told about "intent" ...that all animal people are blood-sucking, money hungry sociopaths... is simply not true. That there are lots and lots of people who really do care about the well-being of the animals they work with and try to do the right thing. Coming from different ideologies we may disagree on what the right thing is -- but that doesn't imply intentional cruelty. A generation of dog lovers trained their canines using the Koehler Method. My mother was a firm believer in Koehler, particularly with dogs that had an aggressive streak. And it works. Well trained Koehler dogs listen and obey. But it's a tough love approach compared to clicker training. That doesn't make Koehler trainers abusers -- it's a difference in philosophy and approach.
Logan,
Did you do anything to shut it down. It is a terrible sham and embarrassment. Trust me on this, I will get to the bottom of this. I do hope that's not what your "plea" for funds was to finance. What you and your daughter looking at a Llama have to do with "circus animal training" is beyond me. I do hope I don't find any responsibly for this sad piece of work on your door step. This will set this industry back ten years, and the more twits stay out of something they don't have a clue about the better the industry will be, if it isn't lost already.
What a bunch of un holy shit this is.
Wade
Wade,
When she told me she was doing the story I forwarded her some written info I had on the circus, but that was as far as my involvment was.
I truthfully didn't see it as big of a deal as she did. Would you like her e-mail address to speak to her personally because I cannot answer your questions to her. I have absoultely no idea why she chose pictures that she did. From the looks of them they were ones that she found on the internet.
Further more I don't think you or anybody she be attacking somebody who was trying to help. I know I came out and agreed with most of what you and Ben said and I still do but I don't think attacking her is the solution. The circus has enough enemies out there, we don't need to create another one. I highly suggest you e-mail her and give her some constructive criticism.
Finally I would like to know here did I ever "plea" for funds at? I have never "plead" for money from anybody. And just to let you know that is my nephew not my daughter. I do not have any children.
Logan
To anonymous,
You are clueless.
Unlike you I am proud enough to put my name on the work I do. I have never had an issue putting my name on something even if I would recieve heat from it, for example the Ned issue. Why would I start now.
Logan
Logan,
How dare you. I hope when you sent your email, and I was kind enough to post it, and asked for help in your worthless effort at counter attacking you did not use my blog for this shit. You and her uniformed efforts at some kind of validity and effort at being included and "with it and for it" have set honest valid efforts back 10 years. Better you and Show biz square the Zoo industry, and don't piss on something you no nothing about anymore. Endorse the shit like the video of the sorry camel act with the ripped blanket we posted. Stay in that world, play your games, don't come to the surface unless you are have earned it.
Why would I waste a moment emailing her? You can deliver the message. "Stay out of it you ignorant moron. If we feel there might be any reason you would be of value to the animal industry, we will let you know. Until then go help something else that might need your meddling. I now have two missions in life. In addition to making the world of animals better, I will spend my life discrediting you and your lot." See that she gets it, would you Logan.
Cirque Solei should have animals to give an illusion!!!!! You ignorant wanna be. Illusion is a picture of you and whom ever with a llama having anything to do with valid animal training, circus animal issues. I was going to post some pictures of Ned and the Hawthorn elephants out of respect so you could debate the pro's or con's of sanctuary's, but you have done enough damage for the moment, and your insight would have just loaded their guns. You have also earned the distinction of being the first person I have ever felt the need to tell in the valid debate of animal issues, Shut the fuck up, you don't have a clue. Most opinions at least have a partial clue.
Wade
Wade, I don't know Logan, but I assume the intent here on the part of his friend was well intended if ultimately off the mark. I'm glad it doesn't appear to have been an "official effort" by a particular show or trainer but rather, an opinion piece. The issue, if there is one at all is whether Logan's friend was ever actually an activist, or if that's a misrepresentation. As a sometimes "spokesperson" for shows on animal issues I think it's important to parse what we say very carefully.
Ben,
You decide what "intention" was, and what "misrepresentation" is. Then in regards to why they trust the name Cirque and not Circus, you tell me how many shit heads with no validity are helping Cirque with their issues? Look at the clip, unauthorized and tell me who do you trust Cirque or Circus. Meddling buffoons!!!!
In regards to why Logan thinks Cirque should have animals:
I believe it will help the industry because people generally trust Cirque, more people trust something with the name "Cirque" on it then they do if the word "Circus" is there. I think when Cirque has animals, the customers for the most part feel comfortable that the animals are being well taken care of. They know Cirque as reputable company. This for some reason causes people to think "It's cirque, it's a multimillion performance group of course they are going to take care of their animals." Once somebody recognizes that one company does take great care of it's animals it leads to a better trust that animals can receive good and proper care on the road. This opens lots of doors.
Mean while he will endorse things like looking as a llama as circus animal life, or endorsing that camel you tube tape we ran as love and concern and animal training excellence. Talk about misrepresentation!!!! Mean while let the big boys on Solei run the illusion of excellence that people respect to take the heat of the rag bags. He suggests Solei should shit on the respect they have earned as a Cirque, and get down in the mud of his misrepresented circus world. He has been around so much shit in his "show biz career" he thinks an "illusion" will help his deal. Sound advise for any successful business.
Wade
Wade,
I never attacked you. I do not appreciate unmerited attacks from you. If you would look at the date she posted that video it was way before I sent you that e-mail. So there is proof enough that is not why I sent you that e-mail. That e-mail was about creating a website, not a youtube video.
I did not comment on Showbiz's blog about the zoo industry. I did not take his side on it. I do not have any objections to good zoos. I have never been to the San Fransico Zoo and therefore I do not have an opinion on it. You pride yourself with having basing your opinions on so much knowledge but yet you placed me on the anti zoo side without any evidence that I believe that zoos are evil.
I have told you twice that you misunderstood my comments on Soleil animals. I do not believe that we should use illusion to persuade people to our side. I told you on a "show either has to prove to the audience and the public if the animals are being well taken care of or not."
As far as the llama goes, I told you already I do not know why she chose the pictures that she did. And for your information I have trained animals in the past, and successfully. Just because I haven't presented animals in circuses that doesn't mean I have trained them for other forms of show biz and other reasons.
I will not relay your info to her. If you cared so much about this video you can e-mail her. I do not appreciate being attacked for me knowing the girl, saying I know her, and provided her with copies of various newspaper articles and things of that assortment.
You have NEVER met, or had a real conversation with me. You cannot possibly know what my experiences are. And I feel bad for you if you think I am the worse person out for the industry. If people like you could turn your rage against somebody's attempt to help an industry instead and put it to good use as helping those who are interested in helping the industry by telling them what you think they are doing wrong and what you think they can do better (which when I offered contact info for her, you flat out refused) or used it combat all of the complete bullshit propaganda against the industry we would all be better off.
Logan
Ben,
She was a former activist. If you would like her contact information I would be more then happy to provide it for you.
Logan
I don't doubt that Logan was trying to be helpful, judging by his comments on the other blog and his own, and neither do I doubt that he was the sole creator of the slide show. In the past he has created YouTube slide shows, devoted entirely to himself, that he credited to 'unknown fans' of his.
Making up a story about 'a group of former PETA activists' puts him in the same category of actual PETA activists, telling half truths to the guillable internet audience.
I think his youthful enthusiasm is getting the better of him. That, and his desire to be one of the gang. Problem is that his fan status of accepting and excusing anything and everything is not the kind of constructive help the business needs.
Still, you got to give the kid a break if he's willing to undo this silly error himself.
My 2 cents
Mike B.
How is finding still photo clips online and making a YouTube thing an 'undercover' effort?
Logan,
"I did not comment on Showbiz's blog about the zoo industry. I did not take his side on it."
By not objecting as you are doing now we have to assume you agreed. You don't agree with Solei not having animals, and you voice that objection.
I don't need to talk to this thing that you call a girl, I will find the rest of her dirty work, and I will discredit it. You did finally find my anger Logan. It has been self serving twits like you and and your twisted spin and the radical with their twisted spin jerking with what was a noble profession that they don't have a sniff of a clue what it is about.
Tell you what Gunther, list your experience and skills with animals and training you profess to be so learned on. Let the world decide your qualifications to dictate what is right or wrong for tigers, elephants, horses, lions, camels, etc. etc.
Until you list those qualifications, you and your damage are no more welcome here then the anonymous radicals with their damage. Go shit in somebody else's living room.
Wade
Wade, you have said before that the circus is it's worst enemy. I agree with that. As long as you a member of the industry, that is a completely true statement. I agree this video is bad as far as showing undercover footage of animal training.
I just don't understand why you would actively try to eliminate people with a passion for this business like you do. Maybe it's for something to do, Maybe its out of guilt over the Hawthorn Elephants. Maybe your just mean. But if being part of this business means that once you are old and washed up, you have to belittle every single newcomer with good intentions, Well I just hope nobody ever does away with my "slice of stardom" like they did yours. Yes Wade, say it, I am just a booking agent, I should be routing to a ribfest or talking at a city council meeting in Nowhere, WI.
Logan and I, like you are from townie families. We fell in love with the business, we "got sawdust in our veins" We love the notion that the circus is a family. But, you Wade, are the crabby old uncle in the corner who complains when the conversation isn't about you.
I love your blog Wade, It just floors me how one can go from being so informed and well spoken to so mean and heartless, so quickly. I pray you weren't treated like this when you came into this business some 40 years ago.
DanTheBooker
Dan,
Treated worse. I had to prove myself as many did, you weren't allowed to pretend. But they cared back then as I care now. But that has nothing to do with folks who know nothing about something pretending they do, to be include.
Why in the world would I feel guilty about the Hawthorn Elephants, I was appointed in the final hour to maintain it until they left. 3 100% USDA inspection reports at that time. Nothing but pride Dan. I encourage every young person, and the record speaks for it. The uniformed spreading false stories are not welcome, and should be disqualified, regardless of their age. Nothing to do with the circus, it is about animals. It is about spreading false facts about something you know nothing about. As Thomas and his young friends who are eager to learn about animals and training, how you go about learning. It is not doing what you want with out fact, factual facts.
Wade
Wade
Dan,
We will await your qualifications, as we await Logan's to speak to animals in the circus. Not the circus, but animals in the circus as they are a different deal.
Maybe if you and Logan helped the lets say, Jugglers or maybe the Hula Hoop industry you might be more useful. Because you sure have the animal worked out great, plus it might be a new venture.
Unless you don't know anything about them. In that case it might behoove you to be quite and learn. It takes a while so be patient. If you just repeat mis facts you are a radical on the other side of the fence.
Wade
Logan is opening multiple YouTube accounts (i.e. 'uvillecop', 'Kokocoffee', 'kygale', 'TheRealCircus')to post slide shows promoting yourself considered annonymous? Common, dude, I'm sure you're doing you best at your fireating gig, but claiming that it's caught the notice of Jacot fans in Australia is a bit much, don't you think?
Hey Dan,
You may have just jumped onto the biggest pile I have seen yet. I credit you with enthusiasm and effort, but not much else,,lol. The video is WRONG!! The principles behind the video are WRONG!! Advertising the video as something it is not is WRONG!! I just checked out the site for REAL CIRCUS, and if I owned the site I would be worried the people in the pictures would sue me for using them in my blind cause. Wade is crabby, and can be very harsh, but I wouldn't suggest for a second he doesn't love the circus as much or more then anyone else. You are absolutely wrong about him not being helpful (have a look at the cat act he helped me train) he just won't jack anyone off just for "trying" or "doing their best" cause alot of the time, thats not even close to enough. I would be surprised to hear how you and Logan could at this stage of your circus careers know how animals should be exhibited and what was best for them (regardless of how many dogs, goats, and rabbits you guys may have "trained") but go ahead the forum is open for discussion of merit,,,fire away.
Wade,
My qualifications are as follows. I have visited every circus, petting zoo, or other animal based entertainment within a large radius of my town. Sometimes i have just observed forming oinions that go unsaid becasue i formed them without knowing the facts. I have questioned trainers not because i didn't like the way they were doing things, but becasue i wanted to know why. I have spent countless hours talking with animal trainers of tigers, lions, camels, elephants, horses, dogs and more. this hasn't made me an animal expert by any means. However, i beleive it warrants me to have an opinion on matters.
DanTheBooker
Dan,
How do you know you are basing it on fact, or just repeating what you were told like a parrot. He doesn't understand the either, just repeats. In a 42 foot circle a lot of it may sound ok, outside of that like this blunder of Logans it makes every body look like a con job. Just because somebody buys you a popcorn or say sit down, doesn't mean they are telling you the truth.
Wade
Wade
"I don't need to talk to this thing that you call a girl, I will find the rest of her dirty work, and I will discredit it."
You don't have to look any further than your own MySpace Page,where she has been on your "friends list " for some time.
LOL... Wade, hadn't read the whole Cirque trust before. I guess the case could be made that Cirque couldn't possible treat animals any worse than they're alleged to have treated some low level entertainers over the years. Animals don't ask for more than room and board. I'll go back to my original theory, that the entire effort was an ill-conceived, poorly executed, and the kind of half-assed know nothing balderdash that only makes circus look worse. Now, as for showing actual circus training, I'd point to Casey's YouTube videos. Real animals, real training, everything that a positive spin on the issue should be. Genuine context.
I've attacked a lot of activist videos over the years for their failure to offer up a plausible narrative. It has nothing to do with the images themselves, but whether the accompanying message is accurate. I'm paid to make that argument, because philosophical differences are almost never honestly debated, but rather are fought out on the semantic level. Activist video tends to show bad behavior and tries to argue that based on a particular imagine all training, all trainers, and all tools are equally corrupt. Unfortunately the "REAL CIRCUS" clip does the same thing, taking "cute" pictures and asserting that because this and that animal look cuddly while bottle feeding, everything is cool. Logan says his friend was an activist. Fine. She should have put herself in front of a camera and told her story -- what changed her mind. That's really her only credible approach.
Dan. I think you read Wade all wrong. I don't always agree with Wade, but I respect his absolute, sometimes painful candor. Here's something to consider. If PETA disappeared tomorrow and we never heard another word from animal liberationists, would Wade say anything different than he has said today? He wouldn't. He would still hold everybody to the same high standard because Wade doesn't suggest that circus is hurt by outside pressure, but rather by inside practices. I don't always buy that argument, however it always makes me think twice. But here's the real deal, Wade's excellence as a trainer is rotted in that same desire for consistency . It's hard to fault that.
Anonymous,
I have said in the past my young son set that up for me over a year ago. I have been on it 5 times. I think it is a silly concept and only go to circuspace once every other week. I find those things too busy. Jeannie, tell him how often I go there. Casey how often have you gotten something from me on my space. Anybody know how to take that off of my space. I don't think I even remember the pass code. I will have to contact my young son.
I much prefer email.
Wade
Ben,
That's been the point all along. An incredible number of folks around the world have gotten it. It is also pointed out that is is one of the most honest blogs they have ever seen, and they comment on why some many things are left open. Where was OABA's response. Just the other day somebody called me to tell me they had found a connection with them and ECA and Monaco and an elephant organization, and I laughed and said where have you been, I pointed that out a month ago. I even let people like Dan make unfounded second hand accusations about something they know nothing about, but get a chubby saying the name because that means they are with it.
This link will sit open for the next few days, and we won't post anything else. Lets see if some of the folks who like to talk in private have a real thought on the subject of this video. Maybe I am wrong about what folks are saying.
Well see what kind of response we get in the next few days, we have a great amount of people who do read it. If they are not going to be more vocal on their thoughts well shut this thing down. I do have better things to do. There is nothing in it for me anymore. I was hoping to save a little for the next generation.
So folks lets here what you have to say.......................... Show the world your love and sincerity.....................
I am afraid leaving it open for other "trainers" to speak up will be to no avail, as in the past. It is a shame because I am certain I am not the only trainer with an opinion. I must not need "friends" as bad as the rest. Granted, any opinion will meet opposition from somewhere, I am afraid having no opinion causes the most. My official opinion on this specific issue is, PLEASE DON"T INTERFERE IN SOMETHING YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF! When Bill Gates is catching hell because his new Windows Vista is screwed up and everyone wants a Mac instead, he doesn't call up Wade and ask him to start a site to help him "patch" things up. Why the hell not? Wade runs a blog, he reads other blogs, he must know what the fuck he's talking about when it comes to computer operating systems rite???? I would say it is imperative that animal professionals do something towards starting a standard of husbandry, and training, but it surely should be written by them not a couple circus fans that hung around a couple shows. Now hopefully some others will have thoughts on this as well, if not, I guess I am wrong and they feel we need the fans to fix us up even if it means telling fairy tales of a circus utopia where all animals want to dance in a ring.
Ben,
Thanks, but I wouldn't even use my videos on youtube to counter the AR movement, cause I get to pick what is seen and what is not. It is paper hung by myself for myself. To really counter the AR radicals we would need actual documented, scientific facts. Not just some fluff that is thrown together to make us seem more humane. It was decided tonight actually to try and put something like together with multiple individuals, but it will be a while in the works. Something has to be done soon though. I spent several hours reading pro and anti circus propaganda today, and if I were the "public" and read it all I would be pissed cause it becomes obvious EVERYONE is lying...
Casey, I'm afraid the truth is that we live in a society where "reality" always comes in heavily edited snippets whether on television, or on YouTube, or else. Sometimes that's because there's an agenda. Mostly it's because real life is hard work and pretty mundane. Put up a two hour video of the guy sitting in a lawn chair while any animal grows comfortable sitting on a seat nearby and the "highlights" are what, the occasional "Steady" or a piece of chicken on the end of a stick or maybe just maybe the trainer standing and moving ten feet to the right or left to "chase" the same animal back onto the seat? Doesn't really matter if the animal is a tiger or a terrier watching "reality" leaves most people on both sides of the issue snoozing. So instead every opts for "drama." And unfortunately never tells the whole story. Science doesn't always translate into sound bites. There are behavioral reasons why training is healthy is captiev animals and solid evidence to back that up -- but those facts don't roll off the tongue as easily as "cattle prod" on one side, or "like family" on the other side.
Ben,
With all due respect, Cirque and their low level employees is not an issue. NOW BODY GIVES A DAMN. I have addressed it countless times, as have you and others. I addressed salary's. NOBODY GIVES A DAMN I have address countless other issues that this industry talks about in private because nobody else had the courage. NOBODY GIVES A DAMN. It is just something to do until the next show. If I have heard NOBODY GIVES A DAMN once in the past year I have heard it a thousand times. But only for this industry, Ben. The rest of the world does give a damn. I have been accused of not loving the circus. I will finally give them that so they can think they are right about something, but animals are not the circus, and those I DO GIVE A DAMN ABOUT.
Wade
Wade asked that I come make a comment regarding this thread. I am not an animal trainer, other than what my own dog and cat. I have used both positive and negative reinforcement, the end result being well-mannered and listening animals. I don't know much of what I can offer on this subject. However, if I had not grown up in the animal business like I have, I still would not buy this piss-poor excuse for "loveable" training. As stated, the pictures are of hugs, feeding and smiles, no training. The shortest clip of training you will find is in the video from 1911 with the elephant, politically correct or not. Ben put it nicely in regards to time and effort: mundane. If this collection of photos is really the circus industry's answer to the Frisco video (no disrespect meant), then we are screwed. It's plain pathetic.
Wade, as far as how mean and disrespectful you are to young people, it's true. You are an asshole.
Just kidding buddy, thank you for all you have shared and all you have taught me.
On a side note, I have been working hard on Dan Koehl's database at http://www.elephant.se. If you have any photos you would like to share for each individual elephant's page, please do so.
Elephant_keeper463@yahoo.com
Ryan
Is that slide show thing the best we can do?
That shows nothing but smooching!i did not see any training!It is not serious it represents nothing positive.
I am not an a person who works with animals,except for my doggies.
kiddies, Wade doesn't sugarcoat ! he is a realist, he really does give a shit! so lick your wounds and cowboy and cowgirl up! He makes me feel very small when I post and rant, but he does make me think about the rotten state of affairs..and this video/slide show..ixnay.
Rebecca,
Would it make more sense in the realm of animal training if you know that the opening with two of the best fans in the world are Paul and Dianne Gutheil holding a chimp. I had a hard time watching after that.
Wade
Ryan,
I got something you can asshole!!!! And you made a good point as I knew you would, in conversing with you in the past(except the thought about not wasting time with the Przwalski horse, because there was only a root stock of 13 animals. That was misguided, Ryan. LOL) Although you have spent a lot of time around elephants in a zoo situation, you didn't fell qualified to comment on a video about training. How qualified do you think the ones who made it were? You have spend more time around an elephant in a day then Dan the Booker has in a month and he feels qualified.
Elephants like anything else are buried after they are posted. The stench of burning flesh would be hard to tolerate in a world where people live close by. I am sure it was tough back then, but without the aid of backhoes, and only the shovels they had it would have been tough. All so consider that given the coats the ground may have been frozen.
I can't believe the burning was an issue. That is the strangest thing. There were enough real issues on that tape to keep you busy for a week if you looked close. First and foremost it was not undercover, now body worried about how they would look it filmed normal everyday happenings. Nobody thought anything of it. But it is history to illustrate the advances that have been made, as well as this video to illustrate a step back.
Wade
Damn it, Wade! I never said that with the Przwalski horse it was a waste of time. My question was: This was a necessary situation, and no other options. Regardless with only a few individuals, the genetic diversity would be minimal, if not worse with inbreeding being if not rampant, unavoidable. Never did I insinuate that letting the species go extinct was a better solution. You're daft, man.
The burning wasn't an issue, it was a question. It is something that I have noticed different zoos seem to prefer, unless it's for disease reasons I am assuming.
Thank you for posting both sides of the issue, and I anticipate the posting of the Ned and Hawthorne photos for another discussion.
I sent a link to "The Real Circus" that was sent to me. There is footage of the Marcan Tiger Preserve. Marcan has not had his animals on the circus for a number of years. I sent the link to him:
I do not know who is usig that video.Video is made here by one of my guys - Michael Inks - and is on my web:www.marcantigers.org
Regards,Josip.
I can hardly wait for Logan or the sad thing responsible for "the real circus" to start screaming "no fair, that is not true, they made that up" the next time some doctored up tape comes out alleging abuse.
Countering a lie with a lie is not how I care to be known. Do the industry a favor and discredit the individual responsible as being nothing more then meddlesome busybodies. As if the other youtubes promoting magic, are not proof enough.
Wade
Wade
Wade,
It's been like two days man. Can we get some new stuff in addition to this heated discussion? You are throwing off my daily routine here. lol
Wade,
Yes Wade.I am speechless.
Rebecca
Ryan,
Easy pup, just jerking your chain. Folks can go to the Oct.10th discussion to gain insight on how a young person was treated poorly, and what the young person gained. Your present statement shows some insight, Ryan.
It is too bad Logan, and Dan the Booker know so much they can tell us.
As you read along you will now understand why there will be no sanctuary debate from me, that was to show a young man respect. Facts are not anything that is of any relevance, inside a 42 ft. ring. LOL
Wade
Mr. Burck in my opinion Ryan is right cant you find a diffrent discusion . every time i read about it my blood pressure goes high and my sugar low . on the serious side man you done more for the industry by sharing your knowledge with the next generation to come so dont let no animal counterfeit spy animal activist stop what has taken a life time of hard work and taking pride in what you have acomplish and done . your accomplishments speak for them selfes . now as a ass hole you may be like any one else the reason i say that is because when i was with Cuneo and was getting ready to go to japan which by no means i did not want to and didnt . i wanted to stay and shovel shit for you with pride like i did with Bauman or Trevor but you were so snubby you would not talk to any of the elephant guys so i gave that thought up . now as far as Casey and Ben i agree with you Casey i being in you postion many times and know the feeling of what you just espress but soon you will be one of the old timers aswell and be old and crabby like Wade but at least you acomplish what ever you went after then you can join us the AARPgeneration like me tired and retired . CleanRaul . ps Come on Wade get in a better mood we old timers go threw that stage its call male manupause so dont shut this blog down man . stay healthy buddy .
Mr. Burck before you shot this thing off will you be kind enough and show more stuff on matadores and rejornderos like Eljulie ? CleanRaul ps .ps maybe on Manolete or Marsial .
Clean Raul,
Thank you but with all due respect, "snubby" to the elephant dept. was not what you interpreted. Unless you meand "snubby" as ignoring out of disgust. Remember the tipped over elephant truck/trainer? Remember the drinking/partying that was going on? Remember the going to the bar, at 6:00 and changing the water time from 10:00 to 9:00 so that it gave the "trainers" time to drink for a while, get back to water, and then get back to the bar to drink for a while longer before last call? Some people don't care to associate with that, and I have always been one of those people. All folks are different, Raul. Those days started the eventual demise of the elephant department, which was eventually dumped in my lap, when the trainers blew unexpectedly and the last two elephant grooms were taken to the hospital. Did you ever have a different name that you went by, and who did you work for in the elephant department?
Wade
wade i have always gone as cleanraul and as the partying you are right but myself by that time i was not a drinker or partier i was alredy pushing age and had being there many years before . by that time i had learn disipline and quality which i am proud to say was drill in my skull by 2 mentors that became in my book the best . and i may had being only a shit shovler but i like to think i was one of the best cage boys you would want to have on your side in time of need .loyal faithful dependent and consitant sober and knowledge able of my charges . clean and more then anything proud of who i was serving or reprsenting . yes wade i do rember all the issues you mention maybe thats why i did not have desires to go to japan again . i had being there once with Bauman and unless some one would fit those shoes i may thought twice . so instead i went back to south africa .with old man Trevor which at that time he was ageing fast . good move and choice . i would had like working for Marcan but i dont have teats as the rumor was . cleanraul enough of my personal life how about the request on the bullfighting videos .specialy there horses since i am a proud owner of 21 horses and a donkey .?
To add further insight in to "training" and to further discredit this video, I will offer this insight in to how different training methods are in an animal industry with no standards:
Logan champions a gentleman with 3 tigers who carries a spray bottle on this belt with ammonia in it to spray the tigers in the face. In 34 years I have never heard of this practice, or seen this, or heard of anyone who uses the method.
The smallest group of tigers I ever worked with was 7 in 1975, 8 in 1981, and 3 acts of 7 that I corrected for Hawthorn. The rest of the acts I have been involved with have numbered 13 to 17. Maybe the small number that Logan references on his blog is what requires a spray of ammonia in the face.
Ben mentions sitting in a chair for a couple of hours while a cat sits on its seat to learn. The longest I will keep a new tiger in the arena learning his place is 15-20 mins. for the first week. In that first week of 15-20 he will be taken off the seat and put back on 8-9 times in that 15-20 mins. After one week, he will be left sitting on the seat for 30-35 minutes, and taken off and put back 3-4 times in that 3-35 mins.
The longest I will ever keep any tiger in the arena for any reason is one hour, at which time the behaviors have been trained, and they are now but together as a routine, taking minutes off the one hour each time we rehearse to the eventual time of the act.
The "kiss 0 death" that is so prevalent in this video is as much a training trick as putting on your shoes in the morning is your occupation at the end of the day. It's why there are so many pictures available, thousands in fact of "amateurs" posing doing it. As difficult as raising a young animal, or drinking a class of water.
Now justify the relevance of the Marcan Tiger Preserve, or Logan Jacot standing by a Llama, to "The Real Circus site or Animal Training in the circus. This circus radical punk has managed to out bull shit the animal racial punks. As the animal radicals are a detriment and scourge to animal welfare, so to are the circus radicals a detriment and scourge to circus animals.
Wade
Ok....
Coming to the close of day one...
Roll call for animal trainers opinions...
Wade
Raul
Me
and.....
Alrighty then...
Watch it folks don't crowd the lines, someone might think someone gives a shit
Here is to maybe turning a bigger crowd by this time tommorow
Clean Raul,
Then you understand it was no snub at you, just a desire to distance myself from what was there. I have tried to maintain that through my career. I chose who/what I want to associate with by their achievements so that I may take advantage of their skills by learning. A while back there were some issues raised towards some one by others not myself, and an anonymous came on and commented, I don't know why these comments are here, Wade. I liked him and I understand he likes Arabian horses like you do. Why do I have to respect some one because they may have an interest in common? That's the way I look at it Raul. El Cordobes was the best bull fighter of the past generation, by the way
not Manolete. But what would an Mexican know about Mexican matadors any way. LOL
Wade
LOL. Ben was perhaps metaphorically suggesting that in real life much actual "training" is about as exciting to watch on YouTube, as, say, watching paint dry -- rather than literally stating that for two hours a cat ought to hold a seat. I can barely hold a seat myself for that long without a trip to the can or the cooler. Sitting beside an arena and watching a trainer is another matter, because then if we're good observers we catch little movements, nuance, etc. And you can certainly catch those things in a brief video of a practice session for a particular trick. The point was, or should have been -- that one the one hand if we want to sell good training we have to let people see what good training sessions actually look like...but at the same time training repetition and endless practice -- which isn't necessarily something that keeps "fans" on the edge of their seats.
I had this bright idea a month ago that if the economy actually forces me to do venomous snake shows again I was going to figure out a way to handle big western diamondback rattlesnakes using two hoops instead of the traditional hook. Thought it would look good, since the "choreography" starts with a snake striking through the first hoop and popping a balloon. Anyway, you can't really "train" snakes, so it's movement and training yourself or somebody else as the "presenter." So every day I move the furniture in the room where the snakes are and I practice balancing these six foot diamondback between two thirty inch hoops held waist high for a couple minutes at a time. For the first week I couldn't keep them on two hoops for twenty seconds. And it would have bored the hell out anybody who watched me try. Now I could probably do it for twenty minutes if I had to, and it looks like a "trick." In reality it's just understanding what the snake is likely going to try to do and moving the hoops forward, back, up and down so it can't. You can watch an animal in the wild, whether it's a bird, or a bear and come up with half a page of notes in twelve hours. Slow and steady...
Casey,
As "trainer" hasn't been defined yet, in reference to this clip, I think you would be justified in including Ben and Ryan in that list making it an even 5. Even with that it is starting too look like 200 years of tradition isn't it.
Wade
so Mr. Burck now that you see some of us give a shit like Casey stated does that mean tommrow we can look forward to the blog or is this the end ? i need to know other wise i have to go to circuspace or the clown blog . also what i like to know is why would you want to have your picture taken with nixon wearing the bra and showing belly ? just curios was this pic taken in the Meadowlands ? nixon always show up there .CleanRaul
Raul,
I told the Nixon story before, look through the archives for it. I'm placing the life of Manolete on your plate with corn tortillas, and you are still whining. I am beginning to understand how you lost the Alamo. Sheesh
Stop that Mr. crap.
Wade
I would like to say that I never said one thing about how animals should be trained or exhibited.
Why, because I don't know
Why, because I have never trained an animal for exhibition.
I will admit right here in front of everyone, that I know Wade loves the circus, I was COMPLETELY wrong and unwarranted to say anything about the elephants. Wade, I have heard how much you loved those elephants and I truley apoligize for that one.
Casey I know, from talking to you that Wade has been a help in your act, which is a great act as are most Wade has had a hand in great.
I said those comments out of haste. Thats what happens when the blue jeans booker gets some Dr. McGillicuddy's mentholmint in him and decides to blog!
I will also say that I never EVER defended this video, nor will I ever.
I have never trained any animals outside of a dog, and give much credit to anyone who has. Whether that be a goat, elephant, horse,rhino, tiger or other.
On the video of the goat, Wade, have you seen me? I am a booker for a reason, WAYYY too many props for me. LoL
DanTheBooker
HAHAHA. Clean Raul is the shit. Not the clowns! Nooooo!!!
Wade is not a crook. But it should be illegal for him to be wearing that bra.
The No-Spin Zone lives on!
Dan,
"gets some Dr. McGillicuddy's mentholmint in him and decides to blog!" LOL That is some funny stuff, thank you Dan.
A lot of animals have gotten the shit end of the stick, and those elephants got the shortest shittiest there was. Folks need to realize that, understand, and accept that. When they do, they can be of much use in the continual repairing of the damage done to a profession I love. We don't want to start patting ourself on the back just yet, some of us because of the situation thrown on us, realize it was a lot bigger then most even suspected, and it is going to take a lot more work to make it right. We are well on the way, but have much more ahead.
In regards to the goat act, my idea was, if you helped with it, when it was done you would want to keep it booked solid so you didn't have to look at it again. LOL
Wade
Wade,
Just because I did not voice my opinion against Showbiz Dave's blog about zoos does not mean I agree with it. I do not have the time to post my opinion on every blog written on the internet. And by those standards since you didn't post a comment about Ned's condition on Dan's blog that would be mean you didn't object to him being worked.
First of all I do not appreciate being called Gunther. I have a great amount of respect for Gunther and he is one of the reason I fell in love with the circus but Gunther is Gunther and I am me. I have never claimed to be Gunther or one of the world's greatest animal trainers. All I have said is that I have experience with animals. I have never claimed to be the world's leading expert at anything. I have grown up around animals. When I was six I started to help take care of exotic birds at Tropical Perch Aviary. When I was 9 I started to showing both horses and rabbits. I was quite successful with the rabbits producing 11 national champions. I also grew up on a horse farm. Now I know somebody is going to say what does that have to do with circus animals. In some aspects nothing but it shows that I have good common animal sense which is needed to understand animals so I am not clueless like I am being made out to be. As I have said I have trained animals mostly for things throughout Ohio. I have trained dogs, parrots, a goat, and even rabbits. I do not currently keep any animals as I no longer live at home and do not have a backyard. Once I again I have never claimed to be the world's top expert on anything, and I guarantee you and the whole world that nobody can prove I have ever claimed that because I haven't.
As to your next comment Wade. I have told you I am not responsible for the content of that video. I take partial blame for not questioning her when I originally saw the video but truthfully I didn't think it was that big of a deal. I only saw it as her attempt to do something good. I have learned quite a few things from this whole situation. 1.) I need to pick who I associate myself with more carefully because even though all I ever did was forward her info about the circus and showed her various pro circus articles on the web and things of that matter the content she chose to portray is coming back and biting me in the ass. I don't think it's fair and I am willing to take partial blame for not being more critical of her or what she was putting out there. 2.) When shit hits the fan you are on your own. I have asked her a couple times to contact you about it but she won't leaving me to deal with this mess.
But I guess she isn't alone. It seems the world is up in arms over this video but not a single person cares enough to share their thoughts with her on why it needs to be modified and or taken down. I offered her contact info to anybody who wanted it but I did not have a single taker. I think that proves that I am serious about making things right. And yes now that I have really grasped how bad it looks for her to have taken several photos regardless how valid or invalid they are and put them together I have shared that with her. I wish I would have seen it sooner but I haven't. But that goes with growing up. Everybody makes mistakes as they get older and they learn from them.
And as far as the Marcan Tiger video goes. I am sorry to disappoint you Wade but you will not be getting a response from me as I have said I do not have anything to do with the content what was posted by her or anybody else who has had access to that account.
As far as the man you say I champion. I have never witnessed a man use ammonia to spray tigers in the face. In fact the only thing I have ever seen sprayed on tigers was either a bottle of water and I have also seen lemon juice used from time to time. But never ammonia.
Logan
To Anonymous,
The only youtube accounts I actively use are mine which is contort08 and I have used a friend's kgale to post my fire eating video and that was just because it was the one logged into the computer. When I was younger I had another account or two before contort08 and I would be glad to look for those account names as well for you.
Casey,
I have never claimed to know the best about anything. I have only ever offered my opinions. And I have always been willing to changed my opinions if somebody can present a reasonable argument. I learn stuff about this business and life every day and I hope I continue to.
Logan
Jesus, Logan, don't you realize that you can undo this whole thing just by saying "sorry guys, I got carried away in my misguided attempt to do something good". Then take down the slide show (it's not a video). Just denying your participation and claiming that some broad contacted you from out of the blue for information on circus animals is downright silly. All of the slide shows you posted to YouTube under different accounts were made with the same video editing program along with several other very obvious similarieties to your RealCircus bit. Your history of creating YouTube accounts, posting slide shows praising yourself and then posting comments to the slide shows under still other youtibe screen names doesn't make your case believable.
At some point you just have to admit you goofed up and move on without nit picking Wade's comments, and let this silly incident fade into history.
Mike B.
Logan,
I did not see the picture on Dan's blog or Buckles blog, or Buckles blog. I was told about them after the confiscation. I ask the source to find them for me. They informed me later in the day they were gone. Not responding to the zoo comments is a week alibi Logan, you had a lot of time before and since. I have been made aware of your responses to animal issue comments in the past. There might be a group of "interested" individuals policing clowns like you.
Trust me on this, I did not use the term Gunther out of respect. You took it out of context. It was meant as contempt.
You take care of your own damage. Like any radical regardless of what side of the fence they are on, they will all tank when it gets hot, and go at each other like Jackel's. If you didn't know that before know it now. Like what happened to Dan, a lot of shit flies and some will land on you if you are too close. Dan can clean himself off, you Logan got into bed with her, and your record on animal issues and your innocence patch about her intentions don't wash, anymore then your "resume" videos. I had never looked close at the Llama picture, but I did after you said it was your nephew and not your daughter. I DIDN'T BELIEVE YOU Logan, and had to verify for myself. Give us a name, we will have someone talk to her. She warrants no more consideration then that. She had no right, on this planet to undertake a defense of something she knows nothing about.
Lemon juice!!!!!!! That's as bad as ammonia!!!! Never heard of it, hope I never do again. It has no place in the world of animal training. That's why I thought the goat assignment would be a snap for you, with your prior credentials in that field.
Wade
Ok Wade, here are some comments from another animal trainer, but they won't be too interesting I'm afraid. The photo montage for "Realcircus" is simply using cute and charming pictures, just as AR people do (or just as many clever marketing men do in any field to sell stuff!), only this time its an attempt to encourage folks to love the circus instead of hate it. I didn't see any training on it, although many of the pictures are of animals which have clearly been trained.I don't think it is harmless just because it looks cute to the uninformed, I think it is showing a tiny unrepresentative picture, and this sort of misleading information isn't the way to improve anything. As for the old film, I think much of it is purely real life footage (would it surprise you if bears in1911 were pulled round on a chain and corrected with sticks? How are bears handled nowadays? I never trained one so I can't comment). I don't know why you would make a film of a dead elephant at all, (unless it was of an autopsy for scientific reasons) perhaps it was an attempt to make a few bucks or some publicity? Perhaps there were valid cultural reasons at that time and in that place (in the early days of still photos and of movies they sure filmed some weird shit!!) Perhaps there would be some explanation in the writing if we could find a German to translate it!!!
Don,
If there was any attempt at an autopsy in 1911, it would have been for no scientific understanding other then, similar to human cadavers to understand how the foot bone connected to the leg bone and how the leg bone connected to the knee bone, and the knee bone connected to the thigh bone. LOL I looked at the movie as solely a documentary of a "culture" or a different world, such as a gypsy life, an Amish life, a quaker life, an Indian tribe, nothing more then a historical documentation of a different kind of world. They keep records of English circus families and the marriages and associations dating back to the early 1800's, an ancestorial chart if you will documenting a culture(FossettXGandeyXMillsXShuman as an example). I think the elephant dying and the "disposing" of, the bear, ponies, monkey, the adults and children living on the same "commune" as it were, showing a "day in the life" of a different world, that today modern society doesn't fully understand.
Wade
I can't believe you've never heard of lemon juice spray. Jeez
http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp357/ez_trainr/lEMON-SPRAY.jpg
http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp357/ez_trainr/spray-bottle.jpg
Anonymous,
I have been sheltered and lucky to have always had good animals and not the tough kind. I also have never had/used a fork. LOL That's classic how you changed the cartoon. Are you sure you are not Logan, "changing" cartoons in between doctoring videos.
Wade
You mean to tell me those bastards at EZ-Trainer have been lying to me.....it comes in 16 oz. economy as well as the 12oz.
Does lemon water actually work? I can't see it not making a bad situation even worse.
Lemon juice might irritate but not enough to deter any kind of behavior. Citric acid doesn't have that kind of "punch." Two days ago I realized that my 14 year old kid is now taller than I am... not exactly hard to do, but a milestone. His brother was 15 when he passed me and he ended up at 6' 2". Anyway, I'm annoyed enough to squeeze a few lemons and spray him in the face later this evening. I'll ask him how it compares to pepper spray. He and his brother have had a few nasty pepper spray fights.
Kudos to Anonymous. I'd like to order a case of EZ Trainer dropped to the White House for the new "first dog" the Obamas have been promising us.
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