The statement before and the statement after have been included for reference. Again, who/what gets censored and who/what gets protected. Of most importance is who in the heck decides. With all due respect.
Wednesday, April 2, 2008
Complete statement from Buckles Blog--White tiger debate.
9 comments:
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B.E.Trumble said...
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Wade, this one is a bit of a mystery. Can't really imagine why the thread was deleted. Not sure that "protected" anybody. The value of the tread seems obvious to me in that it illustrates how difficult it is to accurately discuss genetic lines without access to a studbook. I assume ISIS records differentiate the zoo lines pretty clearly.
The "insanity" issue interesting. As you note it's not a term generally used. Certainly overt aggression as opposed to defensive aggression or natural aggression could be triggered by long term deprivation, or inadequate care protocols, but I'm guessing there would be stereotypical behaviors in advance of that. And if the "insanity" was in a single genetic line maybe it was natural aggression triggered at some point in maturity. Anyway the point is that the thread illustrated how difficult it is to sort these issues out without records and some kind of mutually agreed upon terminology -- and maybe the thread could have gone there if it hadn't disappeared.
Ben -
April 3, 2008 at 9:03 AM
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Wade G. Burck said...
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Ben,
Read the published/evaporated version and read the edited/sent to friends version. It might answer your question.
The comment about working elephants that Buckles trained must have been a real dilema for the well meaning edit artist. Can't edit that, its pretty good paper for Buckles. Edit who it was directed at, so the statement made no sense seemed to be the way to go. While I am at it, let me edit the zoo guy, as I will be sending it to zoo people. Except it wasn't directed at anybody in particular. Only the ones who the "shoe" fit. It was directed at Jack Hanna, as that is MY opinion.
Wade Burck -
April 3, 2008 at 10:55 AM
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Wade G. Burck said...
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Ben,
I have never seen aggression as anything in a particular genetic line. I feel it is just a natural progression of maturity, in some individuals. "Survival of the fittest" or "taking over dominance of the group" is what I have seen. The secret to controlling it is to be experienced enough to realize what it is when it starts at a young age. When you don't control it by experience and knowledge, it turns into "insanity" as a patch. How many "animal trainers" do you know Ben that have the ignorant, unqualified, "I'll show you" mentality? I have met a number of them over the years, and they are the only one's I know of that have "insane" animals occasionally.
Wade Burck -
April 3, 2008 at 11:20 AM
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B.E.Trumble said...
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I don't think it's a big secret that Hanna was a showboat. I have nothing against showmanship so long as it's paying off the institution. I don't personally think that anybody needs to have their reputation "protected" over that. Sometimes it's easier to shrug and take the lumps. Let's face it, there are a list of zoo who paid the Chinese hard cash to "lease" Pandas knowing the draw they provide. It had nothing to do with science or conservation, it was strictly for show...And that's fine and it should be alright to be honest about motives. I lump reproducing genetic aberrants into the same fold. Creating a bloodline based on animals that occur only rarely in nature isn't about species survival, it's about creating an attraction. All well and good.
You probably have more experience than anybody else insofar as seeing aggression as a factor of maturity in a particular tiger line, or in tigers in general -- along with a failure to properly manage that natural aggression. I do think that at least in some predators, canine crosses for example, the longer close bloodlines are bred the more overt aggression you tend to see in mature animals...but that's pretty anecdotal as the records keeping in wolf-hybrids are pretty lousy.
Ben -
April 3, 2008 at 11:49 AM
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Wade G. Burck said...
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Ben,
Your example of canines/wolf crosses has be used often in the argument. Yes, if it is an aggression from birth, not at maturity, and yes if it occurs in every individual from that line, if not it is anecdotal as you suggest.
Yes, individuals from a certain pit bull line, can be overly aggressive, as that is the purpose for breeding that line,and the environment/handling is provided. But just as many individual from that line, given a different environment/handling will not display that same aggression. I believe handling/environment are the most important factors for guiding/controlling behavior. I also believe handling/environment can cause, for lack of a PC description, "insanity"
Wade Burck -
April 3, 2008 at 12:08 PM
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Wade G. Burck said...
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The point of the "protection" issue Ben, is thus. It the people doing the good fight against animal rights, feel they have to look away or avoid something that may involve a friend, how valid are they going to be on behalf of the industry, that the animal rights movement is wrong. You don't think the world is aware of that? Address that next time, somebody whines about the circus getting pick on.
I'm a towner Ben. In 1975 I told a 3rd generation performer, "I think this AR/USDA deal, (which I had seen in the farming/ranching industy growing up in North Dakota)
it going to go all over the animal world." I was told, "ah, don't worry about it, we've never had any problems?"
Wade Burck -
April 3, 2008 at 12:21 PM
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Anonymous said...
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Wade, I'll be the first to admit that I've been a "hired gun" on this one, the guy who can explain away APHIS non-compliance, stipulations, etc. I can only think of one time when I wasn't entirely comfortable doing -- and that particular individual is no longer in the business and no longer has animals. Most of the time technical non-compliance really doesn't represent cruelty or neglect or mismanagement. Much of time it's about paperwork, or a failure to document, or hoarding expired meds, or never getting around to fixing a bad tail light. Stupid stuff. But yes, you're right, as an industry we have refused to talk about the bad guys. Nobody brought more "heat" down on circuses that Weasel Sofabed did with the dead elephant in Albuquerque ten years ago. But according to the fans he's still a "great showman." USDA failed... Any process that allows an individual with a revoked exhibitor's permit to do an end run around the law by putting a fresh permit in a family member's name has some loopholes... And other shows failed, because despite the damage that Albuquerque did those shows have continued to lease this individual acts or sell him animals. I don't often bite my tongue in conversations with circus owners, but on that one I have. I know as they see it, even if an owner is a leper, he's our leper. I saw my father take the same position with bad carnival guys. How do we change that? I've always hoped that someday OABA would put some teeth into standards and promote a public policy that rewards those who meet the standards and refuses recognition to those who don't. The OABA does have standards, but to the best of my knowledge no enforcement. I hate to say negative things about the fans, because I like fans. But some of the worst offenders manipulate fans to help them book the shows, find the lots etc. -- and the next time I hear a fan try to debate animal care with a statement like, "I know the shows treat their animals well because many was the time that I sat around the back yard with Gunther and saw it for myself," I'm going to scream. Today we pulled the cats off the truck, set the arena and gave them the afternoon in the tent just to get some exercise and relax. They aren't in the show right now, but you do that kind of thing because it's the right thing to do. The public doesn't see it, or need to see it, or need to know. But maybe they need to know if somebody doesn't do that... EXCEPT...if we even talk about it, if we even discuss it here... ideologues opposed to all use if animals in circus will surely tar the good guys with the same brush as the bad guys. So what's the answer? How do we successfully disassociate? I wish that I knew.
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April 3, 2008 at 9:00 PM
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Wade G. Burck said...
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Ben,
We can only hope the fan's realize that it is Privilege and not a Birthright to be a part of this thing. It is about helping the industry of the Circus, and not making and protecting friends. How many industries offer fans the same kind of privilege. We in the industry can't keep bitching about the Animal activists, and how they are "picking on us", if we look the other way. I don't know or have never met, Mr. Weasel. What I commented on on the censored white tiger debate is documented fact, and my opinion. I don't hid in the sand Ben, I love this thing too much, and I hope my children will have a future in it. How many "with it and for it, best o the best circus performers" the past couple of years have encouraged their children to run from it? They got theirs, fuck the rest, I want to spend my last years being revered. Is that not the the same old story in this business, Ben. It ate it's self up from the inside. I'm not a heat merchant as some would suggest, Ben. I am the biggest fan in the world. A true fan, because I admit it is not perfect, and I point out why, it the effort to save it. -
April 4, 2008 at 12:47 AM
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Wade G. Burck said...
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Ben,
We can only hope the fan's realize that it is Privilege and not a Birthright to be a part of this thing. It is about helping the industry of the Circus, and not making and protecting friends. How many industries offer fans the same kind of privilege. We in the industry can't keep bitching about the Animal activists, and how they are "picking on us", if we look the other way. I don't know or have never met, Mr. Weasel. What I commented on on the censored white tiger debate is documented fact, and my opinion. I don't hid in the sand Ben, I love this thing too much, and I hope my children will have a future in it. How many "with it and for it, best o the best circus performers" the past couple of years have encouraged their children to run from it? They got theirs, fuck the rest, I want to spend my last years being revered. Is that not the the same old story in this business, Ben. It ate it's self up from the inside. I'm not a heat merchant as some would suggest, Ben. I am the biggest fan in the world. A true fan, because I admit it is not perfect, and I point out why, it the effort to save it. -
April 4, 2008 at 12:47 AM
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Here is a picture of Baron Julius Von Uhl with his elephant Miss Twiggy. http://www.miamicountylife.com/articles/2007/07/23/local_news/local89.txt
Mr. McCartney,
There were "two unrelated strains" of white tigers in 1976. I was referring to the the Mohan line, and the Baron/Cuneo line which is where the Siberian blood came from. I have spent my life, explaining to the uninformed that they aren't white because they are from Siberia and it is cold there. The normal colored Siberian dilution came from the animals mentioned as coming from the Sioux Falls, SD. siblings, of which Baron bought some unknowingly, and Cuneo did the same unknowingly. I spent many hours with Dr. Roychoudhury, on the phone and through personal correspondence. Even a scientic journal/manuscript includes "wives tale", in the complete telling of the tale, like the Baltimore births, and similar statements in any complete scientific book.
I am sorry you brought up the tiger Ari(that is how I spelled it the day we got him, on the paper's, and we should try to keep it that way to stop confusion). He worked well for 13 years before he went "insane". And that "insaneness" was well documented by video, back stage at the German circus the act was contracted to. The owner has the tape. Should I see if she will send you a copy? We will let it go at that, my friend, rather then hanging qualification paper. The other two tigers mentioned Ying, not yin, and Yang had a brother, Wey, sired by 3 legged Ika, whom Hawtorn donated to Columbus, which I trained and delivered over to Germany, as mentoned, to replace a number of tigers that had gone "insane". I use that word "insane", because it is new to me and I have never heard it in reference to tigers in 33 years. Tony severely mauled 2 people. What would that qualify him as? Ridiculous!!! Wey was white the others were normal colored. Some of the worst "physical specimens" of white tigers came for the Ika/Dolly cross, and I tried to discourage further breeding after the first litter, but their Director was well on his way to "tv fame" and needed the "paper" Columbus's white tiger breeding program provided. It was left to me to train, handicaps not with standing, all individuals sent to Hawthorn as our litter split part of the breeding arrangements. Do you suppose the story in the Baltimore and Washington papers could have been leaked by the National zoo, given their close proximity, in reference to the Cinncinati births, on the same day, of which the National zoo had some interest, and got misquoted?
At no point have I ever said, or insinuated that Tony, Bagherra, and Frosty were related to Mohan.
Mohan is one line, and the Sioux Falls siblings are two. Get it. The SHEBA you mention was from there, as was her sister SHEBA that Hawthorn had. How's that for confusing? But that is the reason such close record's have been keep
in the breeding of Egyptian Arabians. Close to 200 year's worth of carefully passed down from generation to generation documentation. That way you don't have to reference somebody who has been around Egyptian Arabians for only a few years. No disrespect.
Example: if I was working an elephant that Buckles Woodcock had trained, my talents would be great enhanced just because I was presenting a Woodcock trained elephant. Again, no disrespect intended, just a fact Mr. Macartney. Did you meet a tiger named Sultana who did a hind leg leap? She was from the Colombus cross. Two people that I know of told me they trained her, until I produced the video of me training her in Illinois. Her roached back and chapel hips, which her brother Gold had, are why she leapt. Try as I might, I could not get her to walk "normal."
That's neither here nor there, Sultana made a couple of people famous, and God rest her soul for that.
Wade Burck
Hello Mr. Wade Burck,
My name is Mary Ann Howell, and I am another admirer of white tigers. I have found your comments most interesting and informative. Unfortunately, I have never had the pleasure of watching you perform with them, but in March 1997 some Hawthorn tigers came to Detroit with the Shrine Circus, along with their trainer Othmar Vohringer. I still have the program which he autographed. Do you know the name of the big tiger that he used in the finale? Othmar sat on his back and held up a hoop, through which other tigers leaped. It was amazing. I very much admire these beautiful animals, and all of you who work with them.
Sincerely,
Mary Ann