Conversing With a Self Proclaimed "ellie" Expert

Emily Prior Now suddenly Sabu had SEVERE arthritis that was caused by Ringling...?
Wednesday at 2:37pm

Lisa Selby

apparently the use of a bullhook by the National Elephant Centre (used in free contact training with a guide) is worse in the eyes of council than the possible presence of TB. Our girls BTW are not trained for this type of handling (free contact) and therefore would not be handled in this manner nor would any keeper in their right mind attempt to train them in free contact at their age. I believe if we could get it in writing, that the NEC would not use this with our girls that would dispel that fear. A bullhook BTW is a tool and is only as cruel as the person who uses it just as a leash or a chain in the right hands is a great training method for a dog but in the wrong hands could be used abusively and cruelly. Its is not sharp as I think many assume so that it gouges and draws blood it is in the SHAPE of a hook, its not called a hook in comparison to a fish hook but rather its shape. And it can be used gently as a training tool in the right hands by the right people. sadly we see too many videos of the bad use of this tool to promote animal rights agendas and none of the proper use of it. Rather than use common sense and intelligence people simply react emotionally and make an assumption.\
Wednesday at 3:56pm

Lisa Selby: Our girls BTW are not trained for this type of handling (free contact) and therefore would not be handled in this manner nor would any keeper in their right mind attempt to train them in free contact at their age.

'A private email that came in about this time: I have no idea what videos she is talking about, the only videos I have seen over the last few years were done “undercover” with Ringling Elephants. I am fairly sure that it was around May ’94 that the switch from F.C. to P.C. and it happened mainly because the Keepers told management it was their way or the highway and they were shown the highway to other areas of the Zoo!

I wonder if Lisa actually works with the girls or is just a well-meaning wanna be?'

Lisa Selby

I could ride a horse and pull hard left or yank hard right on the reigns and the bridal to manage or train that horse, in that sense is it the person or the equipment that is abusive? I could gently loop the hook shaped tool around the leg of an elephant (my god! it fits in a circular shape around the circular shape of the leg?!) to manoeuvre it in one direction or I could gently tug on its ear for the same reason or push with the blunt end of the arc against their skin in a gentle and caring manner. I could also wack it in the legs or head or jab it with the tool abusively. Is it the tool that is abusive or the person using it? Do we really have to spell this out like we are all in kindergarten? Its not like there is a bullhook guide designed to outline the abusive methods only of using this a management and training tool. This is not some logging camp in the rainforests of Asia people. http://peterdickinson.hubpages.com/hub/Ankus
Wednesday at 4:29pm

Lisa Selby the video here shows how people abuse this tool
Wednesday at 4:30pm

Lisa Selby and I might add these videos are almost entirely if not all circus elephants
Wednesday at 4:31pm

Wade Burck Lisa, the circus can't take them "off exhibit" into an isolated "staff only" building. The circus is much more public.
Thursday at 6:28am

Lisa Selby

many vids used are from the Hawthorn Corporation, the company the lease animals to circuses. Alot of footage is somehow attained from their facility. But to presume that all zoo keepers also treat animals this way is a bit much. The zoo doesnt need to train their animals to sit on a fancy pedestal or stand on its hind legs therefore severe beatings are not necessary. The zoo and the circus as most rational thinkers know, are not the same nor should they ever be compared other than the fact that they are entrusted to care for elephants. In my humble opinion the husbandry practises of zoos clearly is far superior to that of any circus anywhere. And I have stated this before, to become a keeper in this day and age takes years of education and training. Why would anyone spend all that time and money on a career just so they can abuse an animal? Its illogical.
Thursday at 6:45am

Wade Burck Lisa, where are those videos please. I know a number of folks quite well who left the Toronto Zoo elephant program over issues of "handling of the elephants," whom I met while training the "pig show" at Toronto in the early 90's.
Thursday at 6:59am

Wayne Jackson G'day, Up until 1994 or 95, the Keepers used to go in with all the girls and even Tantor up until his first musth. We all carried Elephant hooks. Things have been going quite well since then! I was one of those Keepers prior to '94. Happy Days
Thursday at 12:06pm

Wade Burck

Wayne, do you know where the video's can be seen that Lisa references? I would like to note the year and individuals as you quote 1994 as the "turn around period." Tantor died when he was 20 in 1989, right? Toronto has had 11 elephants with 7 deaths and 1 relocate and 4 births with 2 deaths. That doesn't seem, and correct me if I am wrong, to be "going quite well." I don't feel at this stage of the game Toronto is justified in pointing out any short comings in any other elephant programs around the world. I am just saying.......
Thursday at 12:53pm

Lisa Selby youtube is where all vids get posted
Thursday at 12:57pm

Lisa Selby ellies went to ptotected contact sometime agoat TZ
Thursday at 12:58pm

Lisa Selby

no one is poiting out shortcomings in the sanctuary in terms of elephant care I think it is important to try to remember to separate the two ideas as I think some are egtting off track. what is at hand at this time is the possible presence of TB, not blaming an organization for its presence but perhaps for not being forthcoming about its presence to those potentially sending their elephants there. These are not two in the same subject. we are not saying PAWS is bad or PAWS harms elephants or that they dont know how to treat TB, the nature of TB tests in and of themselves have their own shortcomings. Please, as this has been pointed out before do not tryt to twist this into us having issue with the sanctuary about how they manage their elephant care because that is not the issue being raised. I think it is important to know cause of death of animals before one points fingers in terms of elephant care and that includes the Toronto Zoo ellies. In this case some of us feel we dont know the true cause of death of the ellie who died at PAWS recently. In light of that we wish to know the truth before our animals head down there. I think people would do this much and more for their domestic pets I dont think it is unreasonable to accept there are people who care about this issue for all the right reasons with no malice of forethought or intent on "bringing down" PAWS. So again, please do not try to skew our intent. This group will do the same for any other zoo under the same circumstances, which is to research to provide reasonable doubt or to help defend against ARAs in an attempt to get people to understand the value of zoos. At this time n one ever speaks up on behalf of zoos and issues apear one sided in the media or on the net that is why this group is here and right now we are speaking up on ellies from Toronto Zoo.
Thursday at 1:09pm

'Note Ms Selby couldn't produce the tapes she claims are out there so she is going to avoid the issue by pointing out "right now we are speaking up on ellies from Toronto Zoo.'

Wade Burck Lisa, thank you. What would I type in to find them? Your second comment, what???
Thursday at 1:11pm

Wade Burck

Lisa, 1. the video here shows how people abuse this tool 2. and I might add these videos are almost entirely if not all circus elephants 3.Lisa, the circus can't take them "off exhibit" into an isolated "staff only" building. The circus is much more public. 4. many vids used are from the Hawthorn Corporation, the company the lease animals to circuses. Alot of footage is somehow attained from their facility. But to presume that all zoo keepers also treat animals this way is a bit much. " I didn't "presume" anything. You did in respects to the circus. I did note you used the word "all" in regards to zoo keepers meaning again I assume, "not all". That reasoning should also be extended to the circus instead of the blanket statement you made." 5. many vids used are from the Hawthorn Corporation, the company the lease animals to circuses. Alot of footage is somehow attained from their facility. "Again, where are those video's, "speaking of pointing out shortcomings?" I would like to see them. It has been learned recently that more damage has been done to the animal industry by "well meaning folks" then any efforts by the animal rights movement. Those "well meaning, but uniformed" folks do the work for the movement.
Thursday at 4:02pm

Heather Kalka Although I appreciate the level of passion everyone is demonstating here I would like to gently and kindly remind everyone that the intent of this group is not to dispute zoos vs sanctuaries or zoos vs circus or any of the combination. The name does not define the program, its the people who actions within. So please continue to offer respect to all others :)
Thursday at 6:44pm

Wade Burck Heather, thank you. Do you know where I can find those videos that Lisa referenced?
Yesterday at 1:04am

'There the conversation stopped, and no tapes were ever produced'