The Circus "NO SPIN ZONE": Courtesy of Allen Pogue
Hi Wade,
Sounds like we have a very unhappy individual on your group.. if he knows so much he could answer Chris .
Re: Dianne, We have never performed a 'show' in S. California.. I was hired by the Equine Affaire several times to appear that their expo in Pomona and give hour long instructional demonstrations.. The target audience is for the most part complete amateurs, so talking is a necessity, When these clinics start we try to give a lot of I useful information on the "why" and not so much on the how.. the mechanics of the training are pretty straight forward..and come later on in the demos.
Dianne said she left after a few minutes,,.. Well, so what.. the first few minutes in front of an audience is sorta like the introduction pages in a book, it can be kinda dry.. and we fer sure do not use up our best material right up front. I will give her observation some thought and perhaps maybe we could add a bit more "wow' factor early on..
Re: sitting horses down.. you cat guys sit your cats down, so whats the difference.. as long as the horse is comfortable and not stressed out by the exercise.. My guys will now often hunt for and then turn around and sit down completely of their own accord. Not as an evasion or to get away from pressure, it is obvious that they are doing it because they want to. I have thought long and hard and never in any way create displays that diminish a horse's inherent nobility.. no halloween costumes, no comedy, no stupid pet tricks.. ( though it is sorta humorous to see to horses bickering about who get to sit with there is only one bean bag available)
One of the attached pictures show two recently weaned fillies and a two-year old colt comfortably sitting on hay bales.. They would just hop up, turn around and sit, completely at liberty.. not a big deal.
The last picture attached shows Gater sitting next to me. We use this in a demo situation.. I will walk away and go sit down, Then Gater, absolutely completely on his own, will turn from whatever he is doing walk over and sit next to me.. one of our best demos is about creating 'companion horses' .. horses that want to be with you, and are fun to be around.
RE: Hindleg walk.. the attached picture shows a horse trained just like I related in the reply to Chris. The way that trick works is I send the horse away to circle the ring at a canter, I step up which his cue to come back down the centerline, half way across the ring he rears and walks to the pedesdtal to land next to me.. he turns and salutes the audience.. and there is a .mov file showing the climbing wall.. .. My methods are often home spun,, I did not have someone handing me this on a plate.. just because they might be different does not make them wrong.
Now what I did not mention and seldom do in writing is how to use 'high rigging' ..like tall cross ties with light ropes that run through high-set rings on either side of the 15ft wide aisleway in the barn..You hold one end of the rope in your hand so you can release if needed, the other end attaches with breakaway clips to the halter and helps (in the beginning) to keep the horse lined up when you use whips either from a distance or in front of the nose.. In an internet forum situation I try to give new trainers info that will work and will keep them out of trouble.
And one more time,, I have NEVER said anything of a sort about Sacha using clickers or target sticks. That is absolutely untrue.and it is wrong of you to 'publish' unsubstantiated BS.
regards,
Allen
I believe this is the comment that Allen is referring to above:
And one more time,, I have NEVER said anything of a sort about Sacha using clickers or target sticks. That is absolutely untrue.and it is wrong of you to 'publish' unsubstantiated BS.
I believe this is the comment that Allen is referring to above:
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Alan is something of a self styled guru on various trick horse discussion boards. He wows the uninformed young girls on there,but doesn't take critisism well. In one picture he posted, he labeled it a levade when it was actually just a picture taken as the horse came down from a rear, and not one of the others even noticed it. He knows how to make his horses do a variety of things, but hasn't learned that there are some things that just make his horses look foolish - i.e. just because they can doesn't mean they should. I got a kick out of one of his commentaries after he saw the Freisan/Arab/Palamino act on Ringling where he was explaining how (I believe it was Sasha Houke) trained the finish Palamino with a target stick and clicker LOL. Alan could do well if he wasn't so sure he already knows everything there is to know.
'Allen, I "published" unsubstantiated BS because it didn't seem "unsubstantiated at the time. Anonymous also stated that "doesn't take criticism well" which has been borne out and proven correct. I won't post the email that you mentioned was "private". I would have mentioned the "high cross ties" to Cris in regards to his question about a rear but as you state, sometimes an amateur can get into real trouble, because there is no one there to say, "watch out for this, or don't let that happen," and they can get in a real jackpot and cause harm and damage to the animal. Animal training is not like learning a new dance step, where footprints can be painted on the floor and it is just a matter of putting the right foot on the right mark. Animal's often times have their own ideas. :)
You mention that "you" cat guy's teach your cat's to sit down so what is the difference? Yes, Allen "we" cat guy's teach our cat's to sit down as well as to sit up, as do dog guys and elephant guy's after they have been taught to sit "down"(progression remember) which is what "you" horse guy's as well as camel guy's don't do. That's because felines, canines, and elephants have the physical ability to sit "up" easily without struggling given the structure of their hips and spine. The elephant having the added advantage of having "knee's." Horse's can only sit "down" and the few who have been trained to sit "up" have struggled as Bruce the Clown stated in regards to General Vargas. Very few horses won't sit down if given access to a pile of shavings as your horse's do on bean bags.
Honestly Allen, I see nothing in any of these photo's that illustrate a horse's "inherent nobility". That's a fact. They look like "stupid pet tricks" to me. Which is something that a dog or "companion animal" would be versed at.
Posts
11 comments:
You insult my intelligence in regard to horses wanting to sit down. [We refer to the term :sitting up, in horse trick talk. I have never saw any horse in my 80 some years. Most spent with horses that liked to sit in the manner described. In fact hobbles are generally used in these first endeavors of getting the horse to sit. Generally from a flat laydown position. I hate the ugly maneuver of a horse backing down in to a sit up from standing and it is very hard on the horses hocks and stifle. Lots of cowboys have that in part of their trick horse routines. We have used it in pony drills but never with circus trained horses. Even liberty circus horse acts that incorporate the sit it is always done from the lay down flat. And this is the fact of the matter. Please refrain from saying that this is something horses like to do. Many trained horses will at an opportunity jump up out of the sit. Its not a 100 percent sure thing and you know nthat my friend. johnny
I have seen horses that have been trained from birth (I'm sure Allan calls this imprinting in his lectures). By the time they are adults they work like zombies - no fire, no flash, just robots. The same goes for dogs. I can see the need for training babies when it comes to elephants and other wild animals, but can't for the life of me see why someone would begin a foal doing rodeo tricks. It could hardly be good for their developing bones anyway.
John Milton,
Whom were you addressing? Myself or Allen Pogue? I assume Allen, because you are not that nice to me. :)
Wade
Anonymous,
I don't agree with you in regards to training young. Training is very basic control behavior's, and nothing difficult is started until the animal has developed physically and it's body can handle it. In the case of tigers it is seat training, laying down, going to a platz, reinforcing come here and go etc. etc. A basic physical behavior such as a sit up isn't started until they are at least a year old, and then with the aid of a T bar so as not to strain the back. Colts can be started lunging at 9 months for short periods of time in a large round pen(ideally with straight walls on two of the sides) or in a large square, as opposed to an arc with the handler walking, as opposed to standing stationary in the middle. They have to go straight as well as slightly arc and if kept in too small of an arc or round pen may damage tendons. For lack of a better term I refer to it as a "walking lunge." I have had great success conditioning weanling/yearlings using the up and down of a rolling terrain on a walking lunge, as well as sweating my own fat ass off. :) If you have access to a stable saddle horse, you can ride with the youngster which makes it physically less demanding, but as Allen stated, and correctly so, some things are just better left to the experts, and nothing he does with the youngsters is of any real physical consequence.
As far as I know an elephant is the only species in which calves/youngsters are trained to any great physical degree given their bulk/size even as a baby and what they are required to to as an adult. It is also the only animal that I am aware of that is trained solely "manually", again given it's bulk and eventual size. I don't think enough studies have been done on whether it damages them physically to be trained as babies or not, to draw any conclusion. Personally, I have to question the "fat little butterballs" that seem to be all the vogue today. That can't be any good for developing bones if they are going to be trained to any great physical degree.
In regards to "zombies" that depends solely on who trained them and how. Years ago a show horse never got out of an enclosed oval and a fence or wall to guide them. It was discovered that by occasionally using them as a trail horse and "getting them out of the regimented show environment" did wonder's for their psyche and mental health, much as an occasional romp in an exercise does wonder's for a tigers mind. Most importantly for a "baby" is it's mental well being. I have always thought the babies should be handled by the experts, but because of their "small size and thus less danger" the amateurs take on that responsibly as a rule having no idea that to much correcting is as damaging as too little. To much and the animal grows fearing man, too little and the animal is dangerous to man. I have been walked on, run over, shoved aside, bit and mauled by more little "isn't he/she just as cute as a button" weanling colts/fillies then I can recall. I have also spent countless hours convincing a trembling 3 year old to let me approach it with a surcingle, and even more hours convincing it to lower it's head and accept a bit once it found out the surcingle wasn't going to eat it.
Imprinting much like "joining up" is something that horsemen, cattlemen, sheepmen, camel drovers, etc. etc. have practiced for centuries as a standard operating procedure. They just didn't know it had a name. Dr. Robert Miller gave the practice a name, and explained to the world what it was, and why it worked.
Wade Burck
Attn J. Herriot,
Forgive my slow response to this message thread.We were in Ft.Worth appearing at a big show, then had to leave unexpectedly to evacuate our boarding facility due to encroaching wildfires.
You say you have never seen a horse that sits down of its own accord. Well, for a number of years when asked if horses sit down on their own; My standard response was that was a trick and they needed to be cued.. until a few years ago. We were appearing at a "Cowboy Gathering" in Lagrange, Texas.It was a small informal event were we were plqying to a familia audience, so I thought I would break in a new version of the ac where I would work two Liberty horses while mounted. My assistants turned the two loose and I followed them in.as I turned to address the audience a titter of laughter ran through the audience. I knew from experience the Liberty horses were up to something while my back was turned. I turned to look and admittedly I had to laugh as well.
Navegador had sat down on a bean bag and was rocking back and forth scratching his butt. This is similar to what I have seen many horses do after lying down and rolling to an upright "sphinx-like" pose, then rock back and forth to scratch their belly.
So there is absolutely no doubt that this horse on that occasion chose comletely on is own to assume a comfortable pose and then scratch an itch.
Allen
Allen,
WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY!!!! "Assistant's?" "Assistant's?" Are you telling us, that after convincing Chris and the rest of the unsuspecting world that only Sascha Houcke use's assistance, that out of the security of a round pen, you too also use assistant's and not your revolutionary "method???" That's nut's!!!
Wade
P.S. "Navegador had sat down on a bean bag and was rocking back and forth scratching his butt." When was the last time you wormed him?
Wade, get a grip!
At the cowboy gathering, I mounted a horse and rode to the ring, my wife and another gal lead two Liberty horses to the gate and turned them loose. Is there something wrong with that?
It is pretty obvious you are trying to pick apart everything I do or say. It is easy to take cheap shots over the internet, so you might as well settle down 'cause you can't get me riled and you are not doing yourself any favors ;-)
AP
Allen,
Sascha's "assistant's" lead the horses to the ring door, and turn them loose. Is that different from a gate? I am gripped Allen, gripped tight and would appreciate an answer to my questions. I am sure folks would too. What pray tell "favors" could I actually want or need, that by asking you the questions would "not be doing myself any favors????" It is you who could do your self a favor, by answering the question's. John Herriott chooses to ignore you, I chose to give you the chance to explain and enlighten. Say thank you for providing the forum for you to do that.
Wade
P.S. Alan is something of a self styled guru on various trick horse discussion boards. He wows the uninformed young girls on there,but doesn't take critisism well.
As Allen is concerned for "unsubstantiated bs" I am wondering if the above comment is now substantiated.
Seems Riz is famous enough to have his own fan blog
http://ihateriz.wordpress.com/
Anonymous,
That is a hoot. Thank you for sharing. I pegged Turb as a wing nut the first Allen called him in to act as Public Relations Director of Imagine A Horse.
Wade
P.S. Chris, you may want to see if you can get your money back for the video's. LOL
I am quite proud of that website actually!
I EARNED it standing up to abusive trainers. One who was convicted on five counts of federal animal cruelty. Another who was convicted of drugging horses and I helped run off the Saddleseat and Arabian Halter crowd from our Andalusian and Lusitano Association. They got mad and put up an I Hate Riz Blog. There is more than one too! Like cowards they do it Anonymously...:)
Wade, if I sat here and told you how you did a sorry job training tigers...how long would it take you to ask me to put up or shut up. How long before you asked to see you my tigers?
So when are we going to see the horses you have trained?
Dont get me wrong I understand your a great Tiger Trainer, but a Tiger is not a horse my friend.
Mr Herriott why so much animosity towards Allen? No one is forcing anyone to purchase his training video. If you think you can make a bettr set of training videos then please do so. I will order the first set! I know your daughter is making a horse training videos. Should be intersting to compare.
Respectfully,
Riz
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