Madame Col. made me curious so I found out a bit more about the horse in question. He is actually 3/4 Friesian and and 1/4 Appaloosa not 1/2 as I originally had read, named Mystic Warrior. His sire is Quinn(pictured at the bottom) who is by Teunis and his Damsire(his mothers father) was a Friesian named Thor X an Appaloosa mare which produced his mother, a 1/2 Freisian/1/2 Appaloosa named Sequoia(pictured below with Mystic Warrior as a colt and a yearling)
Rapid roaning in the extreme involves a genetic problem, know as the "Greying Gene." This comes from breeding an Appaloosa to a grey gene carrying Appaloosa. The chance's are 50-50 that the resulting foal will will carry this fading gene. When both parent's carry the "Greying Gene", the chances are increased to 75% that the offspring will fade. Appaloosa's with no grey in their immediate breeding( parents), I suggest would be the advisable choice in choseing a suitable cross. It has nothing to do with the mama you are "looking at/phenotype." It's what the mama bring's to the table "inside/genotype." Part of the fun of raising Appaloosa's, is that the color factor is a bit of a gamble, and Mystic Warrior is still a beautiful and unusual horse, although maybe not as striking as he was as a baby.
The presence of the "greying Gene" can usually be seen first by "goggles" around the young horse's eyes. Look at Mystic Warrior in the photo at the top of this thread, and the photo above.
Quinn(Friesian) below X Sequoia(Friesian/Appaloosa cross) above with their son Mystic Warrior who is 3/4 Friesian and 1/4 Appaloosa.
Wednesday, February 11, 2009
Oh oh!!! The bad new's "Grey Gene" has struck!!!!
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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Wade,
I think they look fun and cute and beautiful and striking and dalmatian esqe.I can see it now 101 whatever they are called ,AppeFresians .Keep Cruella away!
Rebecca
so, are you dissing this friesian colt? are you saying that there's something wrong with him and that he's not good enough any more?
Anonymous,
You will have to explain what "dissing" is. I am not that sophisticated. By the way no, he is not what he was as a baby. Nothing is, unless the end result(ie. grey Lipizzaner) was the original intention. You diss it how you like.
Wade
Plus witch I would still take him grey or not because he might then be white. Works for me but not as stunning as the spots when younger.
Hello Wade
I am the sister of the owner of Sequoia. First I would like to know if you received permission to use the pictures and names of her horses.
Second, the original intent WAS to have a wildly colored foal which was the result.
My sister also raises and breeds miniature horses which seem to change their color yearly!
I am not sure exactly where you are going with this post but I would advise that you get permission from the owners of the animals before posting names or pictures.
Just calm downa and stop dissing that beautiful colt and his mother. Why would you say that? I know the owner of him and his former owner. They BOTH breed for that. His former owner has miniatures and breeds them for that type of color. Appaloosa`s, paint`s And dapple`s have that gene. I think and so does his former owner, that that color would be beautiful on a friesian. I have emailed his former owner and you better be ready!
Anonymous,
Whoa....why so touchy, no one said he wasn't gorgeous whatever age, the greying gene was just discussed and how he would change. Why get so upset apparently the pictures were on the Internet or they wouldn't have been found so expect people to react from a stunning color like this. Be glad some one is taking notice and I bet he sold quickly right?
Wade, why are anonymous remarks posted anyway? They are quick to criticize and in this case threaten but if they are afraid to post their name.....well...
Dianne,
I sure didn't take it as a threat. It was way to lame and weak, to be anything more then a defensive reaction. I posted it so we could all enjoy the pathetic alibi. I may use it for a future foal: "are you saying that there's something wrong with him and that he's not good enough? The original intend was to breed a foal with cow hocks, which is the result you see. The short neck and club foot was just pure luck. I have some friends that breed and raise Champagne lions and their color seems to change yearly! I am going to name him Lightning, but I advise you to get permission from me before publishing his name or picture. I don't want all those racing folks calling me asking, how much for the Kentucky Champ."
I advise you stop picking on these anonymous comments others have left. No one needs a circus freak's input on anything. And you are really giving this colt bad publicity and I agree you should have contacted the owner of this colt before writing something like this about him. Yes, the pictures were on the internet, but they were on the farm page and do not need critisizing.
Anonymous,
Listen National Velvet,I am giving Mr. Ed publicity. And any is better then none. The pictures will speak for themselves. Only a moron would believe anything a circus freak had to say anyway. I will be biting head's off of chickens in ten minutes. Line forms at the left.
Wade Burck
Hey circus freak.... last I heard the man that bit off chicken's heads is now a celebrity star and has his own TV show.LOL Good luck.
Miss National Velvet most likely assumes that here in freak land no one knows "diddly squat" about horses (because it's circus you see). I assume she considers herself a big breeder because her sister/friend happen to get a wildly spotted half Friesian colt who caused a stir because of his color. Because of the Internet his picture was sent around,I received it a few times. What about all those others that scattered his picture around, should they ask permission also? Bet he wouldn't have sold so fast then.
Anonymous might notice that I use my "really" name when posting remarks.
Madame Col.
The insanity of this putz's comments is that at no time did I "diss"(that's their I'm cool word) Mystic Warrior. When I first posted a picture of him as a foal, both you and I went nut's for him. As we have discussed color breeds in the past, and touched on the "greying gene" I thought his maturity would be an idea visual of the "greying gene" with this comment: "Mystic Warrior is still a beautiful and unusual horse, although maybe not as striking as he was as a baby." And low and behold some insecure moron reads that as "dissing". Then I post an imaginary story to rebut her ignorance by using terms like cow hocks, short neck, and club feet and it seemed like the shoe got real uncomfortable LOL.
Right now we have promoted this horse, way more then it deserves from someone of our caliber. They seem to be doing a real fine professional job all on their own.
Wade
Greetings Wade,
I too was amazed by Mystic Warrior when I first saw him, and then very dissappointed that he had inherited the greying gene from his dam. By the time he is 8, he will probably be pure white.
On the good side, he only has a 50% chance of passing on the greying gene, so he still has potential as a breeding stallion if someone wants to chance the foal getting it. (of course, he only has a 50% chance of passing on a leopard pattern, and a 50% chance of passing on the App gene; explanation below,...)
Personally, I avoid grey like the plague as I only have one or two mares that I plan to breed, want to maximize the chance of spots, and can't afford a grey foal. Also, it's now been proven; it's not if your grey horse gets cancer, its when,... So why breed for that?
One technical point, greying and roaning are two different things. Also Lp, the app gene, is a type of roan mutation; all horses that inherit Lp will roan to some extent. And, even more interesting, it takes two things to get a leopard; the Lp gene which acts as a switch to turn on color, and a PATN gene which provides the color to turn on. A horse that inherits just Lp will be born solid, but roan out to a varnish roan, (keeping the darker points,) like Sequoia's second son Apollo, who doesn't seem to have inherited the grey gene, just the Lp gene. If you are intrigued, check out The Appaloosa Project where they are doing some fantastic research! (www.appaloosaproject.org)
As striking as MW is, and 3/4 Friesian to boot, I will be breeding my mares to Stonewall Fandango when he gets old enough. He was only born a few months ago; his sire is Royal knights Apollo and his dam is Stonewall Fantasia. I can't find any links to him yet on the internet, but he looks like MW, only 1/2 Friesian instead of 3/4, and his dam is 1/2 Knabstrupper and 1/2 Stonewall Sporthorse.
As for Anonymous; he has every right to use these pictures and state his opinion. These have been out for so long you can find them on any public domain site. No lawyer is gonna give a darn about this.
Also, saying Sequoia has the greying gene isn't slanderous, it's the truth. She has it. She got it from HER dam who was passed off as a few spot when she probably wasn't. The original breeder of Sequoia isn't bent about it, (I've been in contact with them,) why are you? Getting upset because it's pointed out only goes to show how much you DON'T know about genetics or App genetics in particular. And it may not matter anyway. Last I saw, no one knows what happened to MW. He's fallen off the face of the earth. That's a shame; despite the greying gene, I really like him and wanted to keep an eye on him. So calm down. Nothing Wade said at the beginning was meant to antagonize you. After, yea, but you brought it upon yourself,...
I was very disappointed to see that this guy was going grey. I hope I misunderstood the anonymous poster's statement that the only goal in producing this foal was to make a flashy baby.
Cheri,
I was wondering if you know of a website for Stonewall Fantasia or Stonewall Fandango? I'm very intrigued by the Stonewall horses, but can't find much about them other than Stonewall Stella and Stonewall Blanche and some of their offspring by Abacus Farms stallions. Have you seen Legendary Design?
Cheri,
No, I have not seen Legendary Design, although I have heard of him. I understand he is in Alabama now, but I don't know where.
Wade
Madame Col.,
Maybe if you are not too busy doing shows, you may be able to help Cheri out. I think the farm she mentions, Abacus Farms is in Northern California.
Wade
Yes know of Abacus Farms. In fact Holly (owner) was here last week looking at Mr Fire Magic. I have customer who has one of Abacus Farm bred Friesians crosses. A beautiful Saddlebred/Friesian mare that got the best of two worlds...and what a mover. Abacus breeds lovely foals, they usually are quite outstanding and some very colorful. Buckskin's are her latest..
Hey to y'all, Sorry I have been away for so long!
As far as I know, there is not a website for Mike Muir's Friesian Stonewall crosses. I suspect there will be one eventually, but right now, he concentrates on Access Adventure, a program to enable the handicapped to enjoy horse driving and camping. It's pretty cool,...
Carrie-Ann, yes, I've drooled over Legendary Design, he's some hot stuff! I like all those Design Sporthorses, and think Grand Design is very handsome! I considered breeding my mares to him, but he is only App and Friesian. I really ADORE my Stonewall Sporthorses, and want to keep with the size and bone which is why I am choosing Fandango. He's gonna be a big hefty boy.
I bought Stonewall Stella and Stonewall Blanche from Holly and Suzie at Abacus, (I lost Stella to colic last year; we rushed her to surgery, but the hospital is over two hours away, and it was too late. It broke my heart,) and both were in foal. Their fillies sires were owned by Abacus. Gwyn's sire is Uno. They are as sweet as pie! If you have questions, ask away, I will do my best to answer.
I saw Mystic Warrior (called Domino)last weekend at the Midwest Horse Fair in Madison Wi. He is white with spots now and is still quite striking. I did not get to see him perform, only standing in his stall. He will stand at stud this year and is now owned by Jose Trujillo and is in Tinley Park, IL. I would like to know who the Appy mare was that produced Sequoia. Can anyone shed light on that for me?
If you would like to see the Appaloosa mare that produced Sequoia you can go to www.rockypineacresminiaturehorses.com
Her name is Cherokee and she has a page on there.
Oooooh. Guess whose going to the World Equestrian Games this September? Not so worthless and bad-gene'd now, is he?
June 14 Anon, I had full side picks of Cherokee at one time. She's a nice-looking mare. She is where Sequoia got the greying gene, (as grey is a dominant gene and you have to have one parent to get it, and the stallion obviously doesn't have grey.) Most likely Cherokee was a few spot so was born almost all white already, so the greying gene wasn't noticed. It happens more than you would think.
Second June 14 Anon, (I don't know if you are the same as the previous Anon so I won't assume, =-D)
"Not so worthless and bad-gene'd now, is he?"
No one said MW was worthless and bad gene'd. He is an incredibly beautiful and unique horse, and will be perfect for someone's breeding program. He will only pass on grey 50% of the time. The other 50% he will not. Same for LP, same for PATN. Same for Big Hair. Learn to understand genetics.
Please don't sound so angry, and bitter; it isn't attractive or becoming, and it does a disservice to the horse. You've had a chip from the beginning, and it's rather immature.
Saying a horse has a greying gene is not a slur. It is a fact. Being defensive won't make it go away, but it will run off future breeders who wonder why his owner is acting like a hurt 12 year old.
The trick is to optimize the points one considers to be strong points, and to be honest in talking with mare owners who are evaluating his future contributions to their breeding program. I personally can't afford to breed to him as I only have two mares to breed, a small budget, and I'm 49 and don't have too many years left in me to be drug around a pasture by a yearling. If I was younger, had more money and 5 more mares, I would certainly consider him. All his other qualities outweigh what ~to me~ is the one negative of a 50% chance of getting a greying foal.
So take a chill pill. Instead of acting like you have rubbed our faces in poo, be a little more cheerful and helpful. If you had simply posted, "Oooooh. Guess whose going to the World Equestrian Games this September?" We would have all been excited for him, and it would have been Happy Times. But you had to follow it up with a disgruntled teenager saying, "Neener neener!!"
Are you his owner? Are you Sequoia's owner? If not, you do neither person a favor with this attitude. If so, you have more serious problems than a horse with one copy of the greying gene.
Also, I signed my name. I refuse to hide behind Anon.
well Anonymous and person who cannot be named.... I wouldn't normally get into this but that's a pretty snotty remark. First off I think his baby pictures were stunning but then a lot of colts are stunning, the real deal is when they mature and what they become and I have seen none of him since he has become a mature horse. I also am going to the World Games as are four others from this area. Apparently not so hard to do as it takes only a big pocketbook. They offer nothing to attend even to the professionals who can make their show a stand-up event and I hardly think a 3 year old looking out of a stall will be so outstanding to consider it a privilege to be there. Bottom line the owner must foot the bill and my guess is that he is going in he is within a group of breed horses and he is representing the unusual coloring much like all the horse expo's across the country. So spare the big "isn't he so great" spin. Like most horse expos, the World Games is no different everyone wants to be a star and all it takes is footing the bill. The real deal at the World Games will be the high class competitors in the "big" arena and not those in the Equine Village. .
This IS Seqoia's owner. This is the first time I've ever seen this web page. A friend brought it to my attention. I don't understand what the problem is. It sounds like childish bickering to me. I breed for build, conformation, and presence. If they happen to have gorgeous color that is great. I love spots! It doesn't matter what color Warrior is, he is exactly what I bred for. He has a presence that you cannot forget, if you have ever met him.
Linda,
Welcome. I am going to go on the assumption that you were directing your comment to the anonymous folks who posted, as the thread was started as a learning tool for readers about what a greying gene is, as many of the blogs readers, as you would learn going back in the manure pile/archives, are interested in "color/genetics" in many species of animals. Type in Mystic Warrior in the search bar at the top left. I also posted a you tube clip of Domino a short time ago. At no time did I, or any of our regular "knowledgeable" readers say anything disrespectful of Mystic Warrior/Domino. The fact that Madame Col. Dianne Olds Rossi, who saw him in Kentucky, where she was also appearing with famed Fire Magic, is queer for him, is all the endorsement any heavy horse would ever need.
Wade
Addendum to Linda,
I'm just curious, and a bit surprised that your sister did not mention this thread to you on May 5, 2009 when she had her panties in a knot. Are you not speaking, because a friend had to tell you about it a year and a half later? You say "I breed for build, conformation, and presence. If they happen to have gorgeous color that is great." Curious because your sister in no uncertain terms states,"the original intent WAS to have a wildly colored foal which was the result" Yet you make no mention of wildly colored? I was also advised that the owner and former owner were going to be contacted, and "you better be ready!!!!" After waiting a year and a half, with fear and apprehension is this the best a "circus freak" can expect?
Wade
Yes I did see Warrior at the World Games, he is everything one would want in a presentation horse and more so because he looks like a Friesian in white. He is schooled well has a lovely piaffe and passage but doesn't get the audience effect he deserves because of the way the horse is presented (a matter of choreography and music and design). I do hope the owner keeps him in the frame of mind he is at the moment and doesn't begin the wild Charro abuse we usually see. He is surely a stunning horse.
Madame Col.,
Rubbish!!!!! There you go with that "Friesians are King" nonsense again. I suggest the only thing holding Warrior/Domino back are that he doesn't look and perform like an Arabian in white. Something like that wouldn't need music, lights, choreography, or piaffes and passages. They would only have to stand there and be, to bring the crowd to their feet with tears in their eyes.
Wade
Well why didn't I think of a white Arab....wouldn't have to spend three years on training, he could run with his tail flowing, his head cocked to the side watching the audience drawing applause and adoration....wait a minute, I have one of those.
Have been looking at a Dutch Carriage Horse....big tall socks that breed would be different and I think the first dancing of his breed and that works for me...after Chewy it's a bit hard. Trouble is as colts they look great, then wealings and teenagers not so much, carry rather large heads I'm not used to but damn they move.
Madame Col.
That was my point. You don't have to waste time with training. Just get out of their way and let them be them. I mention them because it seemed that you HAD forgotten about the head ramrod at the Ponderosa, Baby.
Yow!!!! Dutch Carriage/Harness horses are monsters. A hot one can make a Hackney look like a stumblebum. There is a "movement" in the Arabian world to stir up an interest in Renai Horses, which are a cross between the Dutch Harness and Arabian. As of yet, disappointingly they haven't quite caught on fire like the National Show Horse(Arabian X Saddlebred), I'll tip my hat if you can keep a Dutchie in your hands and under himself. You manage that, and you are on a high stepping, hock driving rocket to the moon. Those son of a guns are powerful. In my opinion, the Chew Meister is strong powerful, the carriage horse is quick powerful.
Regards,
Wade
Was looking at a hotie Dutch Carriage X Versace....just seems a bit small after Chewy
Madame Col.
My God, take you blinders off. Next to Chewy and elephant is small. LOL If Versace was on the bottom of the horse you saw, yes it would be small, but beautiful. Put the Versace on top, and the Dutch on the bottom and you will most likely get a big, beautiful horse. Many are born with what is called the "Versace look." Without looking at their papers, you know visually they are Versace bred. I have had the pleasure of working with a couple of Versace babies, and in addition to drop dead gorgeous Versace's have the sweetest, kindest minds you could ever want. Just real cooperative and trainable, if you are gentle with them. If you push to fast, they will pout. In the Arabian industry they are valued as performance horses given their minds, and do very will in the western pleasure arena.
Wade
My gracious!
I came to this link via a picture from Fire and Earth Photo showing this marvelous stallion at Once Upon a Horse. This lingering diatribe is quite shocking especially when I cam upon it from such a marvelous photo. Could the owner of this please remove all comments except that he was a beautiful colt that matured into an amazing and lovely horse that defy any dreams used to breed him?
I vene pointed out this site to a friend who LOVES appy warmbloods, so sorry I didn't look frst! Yuck, going to wash my hands of the blood spilling and go look at Violette's photo again to see this horse in all his glory!
So far nothing has said "buy me" but a Dutch Carriage and that in a price range beyond my capacity. Almost bought a black colt but he was bought before they sent me video. They are hard to find because there are so few breeding and raising them and they can be gorgeous or butt ugly. Have looked at a few Arab/Carriage crosses but nothing has reached out and grabbed me yet.
Mindy,
My gracious! You are kidding, right? What left field Private Idaho do you live in where you can censor or eliminate anything that doesn't met your approval or upsets you? Maybe you got lost, and ended up here, but this is an American blog and like an American citizen, everybody had a right to an opinion, regardless of how insane or ignorant it is. Much like your statement of "blood spilling" which I haven't censored/disappeared, either.
Wait a minute..... You are not really Kim Jong-il using the pseudonym Mindy Eilers, are you? I only ask because you sound suspiciously like him.
You need to learn to ignore anonymous folks like I have. To quote Joseph Conrad "they are a taint of imbecile rapacity blowing through, like a whiff of some corpse."
Truth is we forgot about Mystic Domino or what ever his name will be next week, over a year ago, and are discussing Dutch Harness horse crosses. Please join the discussion, and tell us which cross we can like and which cross we can't like.
Wade Burck
I quess I need to apologize. I do remember my little sister telling me about this Blog 3 years ago. I just didn't think I needed to comment on it and I certainly didn't think it would still be going on. I also apologize for all the anonymous postings. I did find out one of them is a 10 yr. old. I think anyone who has met Sequoia and her son just become very passionate about them. They are such beautiful animals.
This blog makes me crazy. I enjoyed your explanation on him, Wade?. I don't see where everyone is seeing any dissing in it, just informative and explaining that he would not grow to stay that color, which he did not. People are way too defensive about it, and need to just relax. And about the pictures and permission to use them...if you put pictures on the internet, expect that they may be copied and pasted for other purposes such as this. EVERYONE CHILL OUT, and respect his explanation, stop calling him a "circus freak" for writing this, and also start breeding animals for something other than a certain color :)
Anonymous,
Thank you for your comment, but in the insecure world of pretend, we have to expect name calling. FYI for the rest of the story look at this link
The Circus "NO SPIN ZONE": 01/23/11
http://circusnospin.blogspot.com/2011_01_23_archive.html.
The Circus "NO SPIN ZONE": Mystic Warrior/Domino--Circus NoSpin reruns
http://circusnospin.blogspot.com/2010/12/mystic-warriordomino-circus-nospin.html
Wade
I have a mare that is 1/2 Arabian and 1/2 Appaloosa she has both the LP and the grey gene she was born black is now white with freckles, what will I get if she is bred to a friesian Stallion?
Anonymous,
I should think a grey horse similarly marked like the mother.
Wade
Greetings Anon with the Apparabian, =-) Wade is correct, your mare, bred to a Friesian stallion would most likely have a black foal. Some Friesians carry a red gene, even if they look black, so if your mare has a recessive red gene there is a 25% the foal would be a chestnut! Many owners have been very surprised to find a little red foal from two black parents! Red can pass unnoticed from generation to generation, waiting for a mate with a red gene, too.
The foal would also have a 50% chance of inheriting the grey gene. So it may be born black, but would shed white eventually.
The foal would also have a 50% chance of inheriting Lp. This would give the foal App characteristics like the white sclera, mottled skin and striped hooves. Eventually the foal would varnish roan if it didn't get the grey gene.
The foal will never have wild color as the mare did not inherit a PATN gene. PATN is dominant, so your mare would have been born with some sort of color; a blanket, a leopard pattern, or even snowflakes on her butt. But as she was born black, she didn't inherit a PATN gene to pass on to any foals.
Here's a link to a neat site where you can plug in info for genetic info. I like it, =-) http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp
Cheri,
Great insight, thank you. Also thank you for the link. I was not aware of it.
Wade
Just bred my Saddlebred Perlino mare to a Friesian who unfortunately does not carry the red gene. Hoping the the double dilute will give me color I guess I am possibly going to get a buckskin....works for me and hope I get her pretty pearl green eyes.
Madame Col.
A buckskin would be a great consolation prize, indeed. Would love to see a picture of the mare, especially those eye's. She has to be a beauty.
Wade
Just beautiful-have you considered that maybe the Spaniards were able to get their hands on a "Nabstrup" stallion or mare from Holland (early Euorope) and they brought it here to North America when they came in the 1500's? Notice the elongation of the "spots". That is a hallmark of the "Knubstrup". Which was a nearly untamable wild early Europian horse. I bought a black Appaloosa filly (6 mo old) with white and grey sposts (large ones) all over its body, and it had the ghost rings around its eyes. By the time it was a yearling plus it was all white with Black spots all over its body- which did stay for the next year when I sold her. Georgeous when I bought her-Still Georgeous when I sold her!! Justy exactly opposite coloring!!
Anonymous,
The Knabstrupper was carelessly bred with other horses and it is not certain if any purebreds from this breed remain. They were originally developed in Denmark. They came from the same original stock as the Spanish horses that gave rise to the Appaloosa. I suggest that the Spaniards had spotted horse's first, not the other way around as you suggest, that the Spaniards developed spotted horse's utilizing Knabstruppers.
Wade
I found this older article when "googling" the foals photo, and I was greatly amused by the comments, I suppose if you like a horse only for color the article would make you upset? I thought the article was interesting and educational. I would like to add these worthy adages to the mix though......"A good horse is never a bad color." and "You don't ride color." Color might catch my eye (I LOVE bays), but conformation and temperament are why I buy, or breed. But then, I have Morgan Horses, not a lot of wild colors, but the best of everything else!
Welcometexomamorganlady. I posted a number of update link's to Mystic Magic as he matured and his color changed. Type MYSTIC MAGIC in the search bar at the top left of the blog to see them. The Morgan is indeed a great bred, and I have stated in the past that one of the things on my "bucket list" is to train a liberty act with 12 palomino Morabs, preferably sooty palomino colored. Although wild colors may not be found in Morgan's I have seen some perlinos that are stunning. A Morgan farm in my home state of North Dakota(Prairie Hill Morgans, Cooperstown, N. D.) had a "wild colored" smokey cream colt with darker blotches covering his body, born in 2007 named Prairie Hill Apache but as he matured the blotches disappeared.
Eitan Beth-Halachmy has some incredible Morgans in his "Cowboy Dressage" program. Wild colored or not, there is no denying their athleticism and kind, cooperative minds.
http://www.cowboydressage.com/
Regards,
Wade Burck
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