A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
How different are opinions based on a broad understanding/knowledge?
In reference to a photo of a Cobra Madame Col. Olds Rossi said:
Dianne Olds Rossi said...
I have to admit this is the first time I have ever seen this. It's beautiful. I have seen the mares with the handler on the ground but never on horseback.
July 28, 2008 8:02 PM
I have no idea what in any horse circles I have been around or read about what the hell a cobra is. The only cobra I ever heard about was a nasty snake. Leading them around tied together could be trained in one night on the RBBB animal walk. What bis the big deal?
July 30, 2008 12:51 PM
Posts
15 comments:
Looks like a runaway liberty act in the wheel with the presenter frantically trying to slow bthem down. Note they are allk tied together, just like some fifteen ponies on the animal walk.
Johnny,
There you are. Don't forget they are mare brought in from the pasture, and put into a cobra to show the quality of the farms breeding stock. It is a demonstration not a trained show.
Wade
Thanks Wade for the clarification. I see a bunch of horses checked together and some guy with a loud whip. My question was to be what is the point? The thing still does not make any sense. seems pointless to non-equine person like me so I am still unimpressed.It is a demonstration of what? And being drug around with some kind of choke collar tells me what about the quality of the stock? I don't understand this at all. Please explain this in terms that the less informed like may might understand.
Warren
Warren,
You and Ryan both brilliantly illustrated why our animal industry had so much problem, and why we are still a "soft target" and having problems. With all due respect, the public looked at what circus did, and misunderstood by making statements based on misconceptions. There misconceptions were/are responded to by friends of the circus/non animal performers, who know as little about it as they do.
Those are not choke collars. Those are poll straps, working on the same principle of s "be kind" halter. Different from the halter you may be used to, and applying pressure to the poll of the horse, instead of the nose/jaw. Not a single horse was drug in the whole tape, Warren. I have seen more dragging with ponies going from the truck to the building or as John Herriott said, animal walks. Do you see the bells. Those are how they find the mares, roaming free in vast pampas. Note the tail dock covers? The mares have been theoretically prepped/washed for breeding. They are all mares, being lead by one rider on a stallion, with two out riders assisting also on stallions. 12 mares lead by one stallion!! Control that most horse folks would only dream of. The best you could hope for in a normal situation is 6 people walking with two horses each. The whip cracking you seemed to find offensive I am particularly concerned at Warren. Look again real close, with out drawing an AR conclusion based on what you want to see. It is a signal whip. Note how short it is? It is used to "signal" or make a loud crack. It is the same whip used for hounds when fox hunting to turn them. The same thing that is done to turn a stampeding herd of cattle. Remember the tv show Rawhide. I sure hope you didn't assume it was Rowdy Yates, beating the cows. That cracking in the opening credits was the driving/turning/stopping/moving, not punishing of the cattle. It is cracked in front of which ever end is in the lead. The crack, an extension of the person on the horse stops that end of horses from coming around. I am sure you have seen the same thing with a long liberty whip, thrown underhanded to slow down the lead horse, in a liberty act doing a wheel, which this is. Note as it is cracked they stop/back up, and the rider goes forward and the other end follows him, and the cobra/wheel goes the other direction.
The cobra was a historic way for one skilled man to lead many horses a long distance, from the pasture for breeding, or to a neighboring hacienda for breeding without the aid of "goofs", and it showed the tractability of his stock. They could also be lead in parades the same way. Remember these were/are rural area much as the US used to be when the big deal was to get together a number of times a year and discuss agriculture/farm stock and show off what you had. Doing it as a gallop is for exhibition purposes today. Have you ever seen a liberty horse with a come along on? What is it's purpose? Have you ever seen liberty horses strung together with a lung line? What is it's purpose?
Reference the July 28th thread for more pictures.
Wade
Warren,
Possibly Jeannie, Dianne or others will explain further the purpose of a neck band/strap for a mare in a breeding situation.
Wade
Wow\, ARE YOU NIEVE. Save this bullshit for the suckers and do not insult our intelligence. Obviously this is a show and not the first time they have been hooked up. Green horses, especially Arabs being hooked up to jerk=along for the first time, most would be rearing, jerking back or dragging on the ground. I wise horse man would know better in doing this. And especially with a guy popping a whip over them at the same time. I can not buy this bull and am amazed that you have heard econd hand and believed it.
Johnny,
They spend their whole life being lead like this. No where did I say the first time. Normally 4 to 12(16 being the largest cobra I have seen with buckskin Lusitanos.
Just because rope snaps and harness breaks on scared tied together liberty ponies, doesn't mean a horse can't be trained to be handled in a group. You may have to sit down for this Johnny, but there are a few horsemen in this world, who are very good, who have no "circus roots."
In case you folks outside of the circus are wondering "bullshit for the suckers" is you all. LOL
John, to said you had never heard of a Cobra "in your circle", and I just showed you one, La Cobra. So now you of all people are going to attack whether it is humane or not?
Better you tell us what a horse, whose skin twitches at the step of a fly thinks about Lorenzo walking around up there. with now pad on the hip.
Wade
Warren, I think here is a misconception of entertainment venues. You I will assume, are watching it from as circus attraction but in fact it is from my world of horse entertainment. Imagine a two hour show on horse acts if they all did what I do on Fire Magic it would be entirely boring but add the different breed accomplishments it becomes a show. The La Cobra shown in a circus would be non productive as the liberty acts would outshine them. Put it in with many other horse acts and it becomes "wow", hard to do and in the horse world mares that close to stallions with no screaming and hollering is amazing and a great feat in training. Herding around that many mares all matched and beautiful by dancing prancing stallions and doing it well put to great music is great. So hopefully you look at it from another view. Horse entertainment venues will mix many types of horse displays to keep it interesting and lively but maybe it takes horse knowledge to understand but the display itself much like a drill team certainly is interesting, difficult and beautiful to see.
Horseshit, bullshit, crap. The more you alibi for it the more rediculous you and it are. This is not horse training in any sense of the word. That yu are putting a "spin"{ to it is your perogitive, but please do not insult my intelligence with trying to convince anybody that his has any redeeming value in any of the equestrian arts and am amazed that Diane went along with that crap after the hours she has spent in he saddle and on the ground with positive equestrian work.Also I am also qualified in driull teams etc. In his fina years my father was the resident trainer for some three years with the Abu Bekr Shrine horse patrol in Sioux City during my Gil Gray 7 yars. and I frequently visited with him and the stable and their quadrille of some twenty four an on practice nights rode for a member that could'y make it. The horses pretty well knew the pretty sophisticated routine and all I had to do in most cases was hang on. I would suggest to you that along with that I rode the eight man with Lashinsky and Arabian NBights. What bQuadrille have you ever rode in that would give you any credentials on the subject other than hearsay?
If you haven't been in the trenches don't try to tell them how bto run the war.
Johnny,
Speaking of Arabians, which we weren't take up your historic thoughts on La Cobra with the Andalusian folks:
BREEDING THE PUREBRED SPANISH HORSE
About 8,000 purebred foals are born every year in Spain. Mares and young stock normally live on ranches in the country with plenty of freedom to run. Approved mares may start breeding at 3 or 4 years of age. The average retirement age for a broodmare is 20. Traditionally, mares are not trained for work as stallions are. However, Sánchez de Movellán says, "My philosophy is that the mares shouldn't simply be in the country and used for breeding. They should be trained, perhaps not to a high degree like the stallions, but trained just the same. I particularly like to teach the mares to drive."
One historic use of mares on the farm is on the grain-threshing floor. The traditional "cobra", in which up to 10 mares are collared together side by side, is still practiced on many farms as a demonstration of temperament. A handler, either on the ground or mounted (on a stallion, no less), works the mares in circles with a remarkable display of accuracy and obedience.
ANDALUSIANS FOR YOU
Very much a part of Spain and one place where the Andalusian stallion is outnumbered is the COBRA--Breeding studs present a line of mares joined only by a strap at the neck performing perfectly co-ordinated movements under the over sight of their trainer. They may be in foal and sometimes they are followed by a group of their babies.
Horseback Vacations/ in Spain
At Viva Iberica, you can plan the horse riding holiday to suit you - whether it is riding the Purebred Spanish (Andalusian) & Lusitano ‘Schoolmasters’ in the spectacular surrounding countryside; and/or improving your understanding and technique with instruction in Classical Dressage, High School (intermediate to advanced), long reining, work in hand, Doma Vaquera and carriage driving.
Trainers on staff:
Richard Lust - Richard is an official delegate for the Asociación Nacional de Doma Vaquera (Spanish National Doma Vaquera Association) and founded the first Doma Vaquera Association in the UK, being the only officially recognised Doma Vaquera instructor when living in England. Richard assisted with the formulation of the European Working Equitation regulations when this was a ‘new’ sport and has taken part in Doma Vaquera, acoso y derribo and performed riding, handling and driving displays for many years, including Alta Escuela, ridden, in hand and on the long rein. Richard is an advocate of classical riding methods, is included in the CRC Trainers Directory and has worked in support of the Classical Riding Club in the UK. With Sue, his wife, Richard produced a driven pair of stallions that achieved 2nd place at Royal Windsor.
You will like this Johnny:
At Viva Iberica, we don't call ourselves whisperers or communicators, but we believe we have a natural approach to horses; consider our 15 or so main riding stallions quietly working together in the school, working willingly in hand, riding out with our mares or when Richard sometimes works a group of mares (lote de yeguas, or 'cobra') while riding one of our stallions
This is the second time we have done this, Johnny.
Wade
Circus and War Veteran,
I know what a trench is in reference to a war, but what the heck is it in reference to a circus? Is it the ditch you dig around the animal tent during a downpour, so the hay and animal pens doesn't get soaked?
Wade
I didn't mean to start a war, folks. I do not have a giant high resolution monitor and a high powered computer so that I can freeze a frame and inspect it minutely for details such as a mare with tails preped for breeding or details about the harness. I can only comment on what I am able to observe. I appreciate these details being pointed out so I can go back and watch more closely with the resolution I have and try to spot these things.
As for looking at this as a circus performance, sorry. I have the intelligence to see this is not in a circus but some kind of equine performance or exhibition. I would not begin to evaluate this through my eyes as I would something in a circus ring. I still see a bunch of horses basically checked together in a big circle. This is, I admit, a type of harness that I have never seen. I saw the whip noise as not achieving anything - I say no result from its use, I did not say anything about using a whip as a cue and certainly can understand how it might be used as such.
What I don't understand is how this in any way might demonstrate the quality of the particular farm's breeding stock. If I have a great stallion (not likely in my lifetime and with my resources) and am looking for a great mare, I would think I would be looking at each mare individually for conformation, temprement, and such not trying to pick one out of a circling herd. But what do I know. I only grew up raising and breeding quality beef and dairy cattle and a Master's degree in genetics probably doesn't helpme any in understanding the equine world.
Wade, you say the industry is broken because of public perception. On this blog, I know I can express what I observe and comment on whatever I want while freely admitting that I am not an expert and am willing to take the flack that I might bring down upon myself. By the same token, the experts who can fix the public perception need to listen to those of us who are not experts but are willing to learn and not become irate but try to educate us about why our perceptions are wrong.
I was less than impressed by this cobra thing (which I also though of a large rather nasty snake) and have seen better displays of horses and horsemanship by the youth riders at Silver Spurs in Kissimmee with their quadrile. Not all of us are so knowledgable to know that a corbris also a proper means od displaying brood mares.
Sorry to rant again and I offer my appoligies for starting a war among people I respect.
Warren,
Don't go "candy" on us too soon. You have only been in this barn for a short time, and you didn't realize the Col. and I were just quirting each other a bit. If you want see some real dust up's, you need to follow the arrow's backwards. You'll even see the time we crashed out of the saloon, through the swinging batwing doors, and rolled around in the street. LOL
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Col. John Milton Herriott, but I am not going to let him pistol whip me every time he gets a burr under his saddlepad. I had the honor of learning a lot of my craft under his tutelage for which I have publicly stated gratitude many times. The day he told me to "TAKE THAT WHIP AND JAMB IT UP YOUR ASS, UNTIL YOU LEARN TO USE IT RIGHT," I noted a hint of affection in his voice, even if nobody else did.
I wouldn't expect you to be impressed with this in the context of circus, Warren. Anymore then I would expect you to be impressed with the best of breed at Westminster in the context of sled dogs. But it you wanted to breed a champion terrier, it might behoove you to sit up at take notice.
I would breed my horses different, Warren. I would take my dozen brood mares and go look for 12 different stallions. Actually 9 stallions, because I would breed 3 of the Sheik Al Babi mares to Amir Jammal. And each one would have a neck collar on, so they were bred to the right stallion.
The genetic power is in the ladies, Warren.
Wade
Whats's so hard to understand. La Cobra is a cultural traditional display, Lorenzo is a flat out fast and exciting act. I will agree to disagree that we all don't see things thorugh the same eyes.
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