This is Bristol Zoos original pair of white tigers(August 22,1965) and their offspring in the photos below. The female in the two pictures appears to be the nervous type, as I have never seen a photo of her laying down outside. Reports say she would stand or sit with her sibling, but only laid down in the inside quarters.
Friday, April 18, 2008
For Paul McCarthy
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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34 comments:
Wade- these pictures are magnificent. I sent you a couple of e-mails about them. Regards Paul
When I visited the Bristol Zoo in 1977 they had three big white tiger cubs on display. These were grandchildren of their original pair, Champak and Chameli, which were bred by the Maharaja of Rewa and born in Govindgarh Palace. One of them was Akbar II who went to the Dudley Zoo in England and was outcrossed with an unrelated orange female tiger. Another white female was also outcrossed at Bristol Zoo. Some of these orange cubs, the great grandchildren of the original pair, went to Longleat. Others were bought by Senator Zahid Akhtar of Pakistan. He donated them to Karachi Zoo where they produced a white cub, or at least two of them did. The senator was angry that nobody told him that these tigers all carried white genes ! Today there are white tigers in three Pakistani zoos descended from Champak and Chameli. In fact since the Bristol Zoo at one point had only white females they traded one for a white male from New Delhi Zoo named Roop. Consequently the white tigers in Pakistan are also descended from the pair of white tigers the New Delhi Zoo recieved from the Maharaja of Rewa, a pair named Raja and Rani, who were littermates of Mohini from the first litter of white tigers born in captivity in 1958.
Paul,
Great stuff. Thank you. I appreciate hearing anything else you may know.
Wade
Wade-I realized yesterday that I was wrong about Roop being the offspring of Raja and Rani. He was the son of Raja and Radha. Radha was also Mohini's mother so Roop was Mohini's half brother. Roop was named by U Nu, the leader of Burma, at a public christening ceremony at the New Delhi Zoo for white tiger cubs. Indira Gandhi also participated in these events. Mohini had an orange brother in the Paris Zoo named Ramesh. He was part of the last litter produced by Mohan and Radha. The Maharaja of Rewa gave him to the President of India who in turn made him a state gift to France. I contacted the Paris Zoo and they told me they never knew that Ramesh carried white genes. He fathered lots of cubs by an unrelated orange tigress, but none survived to maturity. If you've seen K.S. Sankhala's book Tiger, he was the director of the New Delhi Zoo when they started breeding white tigers, and he was the first director of Project Tiger. I thought you might know him and I suspect he would have been at that tiger symposium you attended in 1984. One chapter of his book is on the white tigers of Rewa, and he seemed to know of every white tiger in the world up to 1976, their names and locations, and how they were all interrelated, except for Tony and his relatives, which he never mentions.
There was one female orange tiger out of an outcross from one of the Bristol Zoo's white tigers who went to Glasgow Zoo. She was paired with an orange male tiger who was born at the Columbus Zoo on 9/6/88 named Diamond. Both tigers were the property of the Chipperfield Corp. Diamond's parents were Ika and Dolly.
Paul,
That is great stuff. Where/what happened with that tiger? I may let you use the cute name, "knows more then Wade Burck about White Tigers."
I was sent a picture of Tony, Ika, and Ari. I will try to post it later today. Keep the info coming. I enjoy getting "schooled" Thank you.
Wade
Wade-I'm sure I don't know more about white tigers than you do. That particular piece of information came from the charts that were done by that person I mentioned to you in e-mails. He does'nt want his name going on the internet in connection with this subject. I don't have any more information about those two tigers. I think Glasgow Zoo closed and somewhere I may have read, on the internet, that the tigers went to Spain, but I'm not sure. Bristol Zoo washed it's hands of white tigers. I think that orange female tiger was the last descendant of Champak and Chameli left in Britain. Thanks for the messages. Regards Paul PS The person I mentioned above also told me about the other heterozygotes from out of the Bristol Zoo white tiger lineage being bought by that Pakistani senator and being donated to Karachi Zoo.
Paul,
When you reference the information with the individual that you mention, I have to question it, as I have question why you wouldn't want you name on something you authored. We sound like like a couple of Mafia Don's, don't we. LOL
Wade
Wade-I was looking on the internet for information about the Glasgow Zoo closing. It did, but I could'nt find anything about where the tigers were sent. I looked back at the charts and the tigress we were talking about was called "Charla" at the Glasgow Zoo. She was previously named Schalla, and according to my information she was placed with Diamond at Glasgow Zoo in 1991 at which time she was the last of the Bristol Zoo line of white tigers left in the UK. I can only tell you that that person, who researched and drew up these charts reacted badly when his name was put on the internet in connection with white tigers previously. He said that private breeders would stop sharing their information with him. I did'nt want to get him upset again and I gave you his name by e-mail. I don't want to take credit for somebody else's research. Regards Paul
Wade-I was just looking at Sarah Hartwell's website. It says that Senator Zahid Akhtar of Pakistan bought some of the orange descendants of Bristol Zoo's white tigers via Ravensden Zoo Co. Ltd. It also says that Longleat recieved three orange white gene carriers descended from Bristol Zoo's white tigers named Nepti, Schalla, and Suki. Schalla is obviously the one that went to Glasgow Zoo.
Wade-I was looking at this book yesterday thinking that it might tell me something about the origins of Susie Tony's grandmother. It's titled Wild Tigers & Tame Fleas by Bill Ballantine, published in 1958. On page 120 it says "Beatty prefers the jungle bred cats..." "Give me the wild imports every time" he said. "They're stronger, more ferocious and usually smarter than their civilized cousins." I thought that some of the cubs of Mohan and Begum which were sold to an animal dealer might have reached the United States in time so that one or two of them could have been Susie's parents. Gerald Iles echoed Clyde Beatty's sentiments regarding tigers and lions from the wild. He wrote in his book At Home In The Zoo that zoos and circuses always prefered to get their lions and tigers from the wild.
Paul,
Now your come at me with Beatty too? This is my sanctuary. Give me a break. Take any "authorized" biography with a big dose of salt. Ask 50 people and they will say, he had jungle killers. Ask another 50 and the will say no. I can only look at the number of pictures of Beatty and others of that era holding cubs, and knowing the ease of breeding them, even in the worst conditions, and my answer would be "why?" Unless you were spinning a "death defying tale of daring." And that is the job of a publicist/co-author.
In the new movie, Charlie Wilson's War, the press secretary asks the politician with the drinking problem, "the reporters want to know why you won't go into rehab?" Tom Hanks responds, "what are you going to tell them?" Press secretary responds, " that you won't go into rehab, because they don't have alcohol there." Tom Hanks responds, "that's why you are the press secretary, BooBoo." Brilliant movie.
Wade
Paul,
Stronger, more ferocious, usually smarter. The learned Mr. Beatty would have been correct with ferocious. And that is death defying story telling. He was wrong on stronger and he patched himself on "usually" stronger.
Wade
Mr McCarthy,
I respond to the jungle bred vs captive bred. I agree with Wade WHY????? I was told by my hero as a youth that bottle baby cats were not as good as ones that were raised by their mothers and left alone till adulthood. I have figured out since then, that he was wrong. My first cat act I looked all over TX. for 4 tigers around a yr old that had zero human contact. Eventually I found them, though they were tough to find, because why would someone have tiger cubs and not mess with them. These tigers did end up trained, and quickly, but they did minimal behaviors individually. They got on seats, lay down, one roll over, one fire hoop, and a lot of snarling. The only time these cats sat up, was to fight or defend, which looks nothing like a real sit up. These cats were very easy to drive up onto seats and push around, but were never solid performers. Alot of this was due to my inexperience training tigers, but alot also to there being unfamiliar with human interaction. I gave the hand raised cats a go with my next act, and I am positive after training them, a person would be not only insane to prefer wild caught, but also not interested in welfare of these beasts. That being said, I truly doubt cats were being jungle captured and put in acts after the first litter of cubs hit the ground. It is however great publicity to say they are jungle bred savage killers, if someone is going for the subjugator persona. My opinion and nothing more....
Casey,
And he fought them, and bounced them and pushed them around. For that you need a certain type of animal. 1 1/2 to 2 year old specimens,not much contact, I assume were more plentiful
then wild caught, and what was likely used. 90% of the tellers of the Beatty legend would not know the difference between "wild caught" and something raised "hands off" at Gay's Lion Farm, if one bit them in the ass. Is that "training"? If so, then he was a trainer.
What is taking a young animal, conditioning it to adulthood, and then teaching it to walk on it's hindlegs? I don't think it is the same thing as bouncing a lion or tiger, so give it a name. Roger notes, that Beatty did a ten lion laydown, out of, you decide, how many in the act. Johnny Herriott was pretty excited to see a picture of Clyde Beatty sitting three cats up on pedestals. I always wondered why he didn't sit at least some of those ten lions up
on the ground. And then John Herriott answered it for me. The public doesn't like that crap. Why was Beatty always changing cats around? Why was he always getting new stuff together? What happened to the old stuff? Some will insinuate that the audiences left because the didn't see more Beatty. Some will insinuate the animal rights movement "just happened". I would insinuate, that the audience left because they were tired of the same old thing not just cage acts. I would also insinuate, that the AR movement didn't just happen. I think they just finally got fed up.
And that friend, is my opinion.
Wade
Yeah I am a little confused on the training thing. It is possible that I have actually got worse as a trainer by the Beatty fanatic box seats. The only adult male lion I ever tried to train was a very gentle animal, however he, just as almost any animal in a cage its first time will do, would charge at pressure given from a distance. The first time this happened, not knowing a thing about bouncing a lion, I nearly shit my pants and ran out the arena door. Being to stupid and slow thinking to run, I just stood there ready to take the hit. HE STOPPED, and he STOPPED EVERY TIME THE SAME DISTANCE FROM ME EVERY DAY. I don't kid myself and say "wow, I trained this lion to do this" I know now that all lions want to stop. What was that quote Wade? A good dog trainer doesn't teach the dog to bark, he teaches it to shut up. I guess we are wrong, and the crowd wants more barking dogs. It's ok though Wade, I got a source for bentwood chairs, and can braid a half ass lash (what the fuck it won't have to fly straight, we're just bouncing) we should load up on male lions and make a dual bouncing act, maybe then people would get over this nonsense. I will say so people don't misinterpret my views, Beatty was a GREAT PERFORMER, with more presence then anyone in his day (no not more then Gunther) and was maybe the greatest marketed performer of all time.
Wade-This book, Wildlife Conservation And The Modern Zoo (1981) by Gordon Woodroffe, also says that Nepti, Schalla, and Suki went to Longleat. These are the three female orange tigers which came from an outcross with a Bristol Zoo white tiger. The author also says that Dudley Zoo had two male white tigers from Bristol Zoo, but one died shortly after arriving there. I saw the white tiger at Dudley Zoo with his orange mate on a childrens' TV show called News From Zoos, hosted by Charlie the chimp, years after I visited Bristol Zoo. I did'nt realize at the time that the white tiger at Dudley Zoo was Akbar II or that I must have seen him when I was at Bristol Zoo. I learned that he went to Dudley Zoo from the International Tiger Studbook which listed him as a registered Bengal tiger. I guess his mate was'nt. I only mentioned Clyde Beatty because you said that Susie's parents were rumored to have belonged to him. The book was'nt a biography of Beatty. If Susie's parents did belong to him and she was descended from Mohan then one or both of her parents would have to have been imported from India. Gerald Iles said something very similar to the sentiments attributed to Clyde Beatty. He said that zoos and circuses always wanted tigers and lions which were born in the wild because captive bred animals were always ruined by inbreeding. I'm just quoting Gerald Iles here and since he retired from the zoo business in 1960 maybe there was something to this at the time. I read something about how inbred the lions were at a zoo in Ireland, in the first half of the 20th century, and how they always knew it was time to bring in fresh blood when they started to get a lot of star-gazers. Thanks for the messages. Regards Paul
The inbred lions were in Dublin Zoo.
PS: I noticed that Sultana was on the same page which mentioned Schalla, and that Sultana was also a cub of Ika and Dolly.
Paul,
I looked through my old messages and just saw where I didn't respond back to the Geral Iiles message. My sentiments are the same as yours in regards to him. The more "famous" a past zoo/circus personality is particularly if there is TV time involved, the more they seem to be full of it. I wager Jack Hanna would be perceived as more valid then say, a Gary Clarke, formerly of Topeka, or Ron Forman from New Orleans, just for being a "personality." Look at the incredible number of tv personality's in the zoo field in the 50's-60's especially in England.
Sultana I referenced in the "classic" white tiger debate on Buckles blog. Sultana, Gold, Wei, Ying, Yang, everything out of Dolly by Ika was "physically" poor. Humped backs, dwarfy, chapelhips, kinked tail. There was a lot born at Columbus that was kept off "exhibit". As stated they were part of the "pr" machine for Hannas rise to fame. I also think it was a bit of a competition with neighboring Cincinnati.
People will often use the term "inbreed" "insane", because it is acceptable to the public, press, etc. that they are not right. And that is an easy explanation for "I don't know whats wrong, or I don't want to admit what's wrong) Example, if you say they are "line bred", the response is normally "what is that". When you explain the use of grand parents, generation old genes, to the uninformed, if you don't get them to understand, it reads inbred. When I was starting in my career, I also parroted "inbred", but then in looking for answers, I noted the majority of behaviors were "environmental."
In reference to inbred lions, and yes, animals can become truly inbred given as you are aware, a small "captive" population. The "Chipperfied" lions are classic examples, from the safari park, drive thru days. I saw a large group at Thoryi in France, Chipperfied built) in 94 where my brother was feline curator, that were descended from the original Chipperfied importation at Longleat. Very distinctive. Short chunky bodies, some would say dwarfy, extreme "bull dog" muzzles, sparce "wooly" manes on many of them.
Again, because they were easy enough to bred to become inbred, I suggest the use of "jungle cats" is fictitious. Ever person that asks about the cats, asks, "did you raise them from babies?" When you respond yes, they assume they are then tame, and that explains why you are able to train them without getting killed. I suggest if I told them "no, I bring them straight in from the jungle", my bravery would be magnified.
That is because the public is uninformed. A "wild animal" has a natural fear of humans, and want's to stay away. The cage gives you that space. The use of captive 2 year old animals raised in a "hands off" zoo environment are what I suggest Beatty and others of the "fighting genre" used. A captive raised/hand raised animal loses that fear, thus making them more dangerous in a sense. But you need that time to build the physique for fire jumps, hind leg walks, etc. Explain that to them, and they "always" say, I never looked at it that way. Not likely a wild squirrel will bite you. He will run at your approach. Hand raise him, and pet him, and he has an "opportunity" to bite, as he would another squirrel. You are a squirrel, not a human(different) to be feared.
Wade
Maybe I should'nt speak ill of the dead, but that is the perfect description of Gerald Iles. I think the Montreal Zoological Society was just a social club. I was never a member.
PS: Gerald Iles and Gerald Durrell used to live together in a house on the grounds of the BelleVue Zoo in Manchester. I think that Gerald Durrell was in charge of the aquarium at the zoo at the time. Gerald Iles told me he had a difficult time getting Gerald Durrell up in the morning. Sounds like a sit com to me. I don't think that either one ever mentioned the other in print. That makes me suspect they did'nt like each other.
Paul,
Both individuals were tremendous "self promoters". Might have lead to an occasional rift?
Wade
I really enjoyed Gerald Durell's TV series The Stationary Ark which was on PBS a few years back. Maybe that house at the BelleVue Zoo was'nt big enough to hold two such gigantic egos, but Gerald Iles never achieved the fame of Gerald Durrell of course. After Gerald Iles emigrated to Canada he earned a living taking people to Africa for safaris.
The white tigers that died with spongiform encephalopathy at the Bristol Zoo from 1970 to 1977 are not considered in Kirkland's s review because the condition was not transmittable. However those cases need to be revisited with immunohistochemistry and capillary electrophoresis in both tiger and recipient brains. In one scenario, these tigers could establish that the BSE epidemic had been present at low levels far earlier than ever envisioned (1960's) and had simply been amplified to epidemic levels by a later change in rendering conditions. These tigers would have been fed split spinal cords and the like -- very high risk unpooled material -- possibly several times a week for years on end, thus sampling thousands of spinal cords. Since nothing has been released on 2 confirmed tiger cases in the mid 1990's, family or zoo or enclosure connections cannot be ascertained until the British release more information.
In fact, that may be the very reason that nothing was ever published on the later tiger two cases, one of which was in 1995: these later tigers may also have been white tigers or tigers which had been in Bristol Zoo enclosure.
The paper itself describes spongiform encephalopathy or gliosis or both in the brains of 4 white tigers out of 6 that died with similar behavioral and clinical signs including weight loss, weak unsteady gait (especially in the hind limbs), could not stand without support, head-pressing, constant roaring, periods of unusual aggressiveness and unwillingness to leave the sleeping den.. The course of illness averaged 3 months to death. All of the animals are associated with the Bristol Zoo. Liver problems were also observed. Feeding practises are not disclosed.
Champak, born mar 62, died Jun7 0
Sarala, born May 68, died Oct 71
Sushita, born May 68, died Sep 72
Akbar, born May 68, died Dec 72
Seeta, born May 70, died Feb 73 in New Delhi after Oct 72 export
Shubhra, born May 70, died Sept 77
The Bristol Zoo purchased tweo 15-month old tigers, Champak and Chemeli in June of 1963; the litters above are the second and third. There is no information on the other 18 white tigers born in Bristol between 1967 and 1976. These are the offspring of the original white tiger, Mohan, captured in 1951 by the Maharaja of Rewa. Outbred with a normal tigress and then back-crossed into a daughter, Radha, resulted in the original litters. White tigers are not albinos.
"The first I had heard of the death of these tigers was a call from the Director of the National Zoo in Washington, D.C. There had been a meeting of various zoo individuals and during the meeting a pathologist from the Bristol zoo presented data on the death of white tigers in his zoo and described then as having spongiform encephalopathy. Hearsay remarks were made to indicate that other white tigers of the same family living on a private estate in India had died manifesting a similar clinical syndrome. Bristol zoo may have records about the history of these tigers. It is amazing to me that when I brought this issue up at a meeting I held at the CVL shortly after the outbreak of BSE, the door was closed on any further acquisition of white tiger material including slides."
http://www.zoochat.com/38/bristol-zoos-last-white-tiger-80580/
Wade Im sure you understand that I want to remain anonymous, regarding the Bristol Zoo information.
Anonymous,
Wow!!!!!! I sure do understand your need for anonimity, and will respect it. There has historically been a number of "white tiger issues" that have been blamed on the simple, uneducated alibi of inbreeding. "Inbred" has been attributed to the White Tiger since the early 80's, as a patch by many for their lack of skill and inability to work with them. When I have suggest that hearing deficiency or visual issues may be nothing more then a defect associated with the white gene, or a dietary deficiency, I have been properly chastized and put in my place, because it is "nothing more than you and that stupid so and so, who inbreeds them."
Thank you for the unbelievable information. I should also mention that "zoo chat" is a great site, and anyone interested in zoo news/history will find it facinating.
Regards,
Wade Burck
Wade, are you saying that white tigers are deaf? (I sure hope not). Sincerely Paul
Wade, when I visited Bristol Zoo in 1977, I think it was, they had three or four big, fat, half-grown white tiger cubs on display in a cage. The parents were nowhere in sight, and I think, or I assumed, they had been moved out to the farm which Bristol Zoo had. I think they had just one okapi on display at the zoo, and any others were also out on the farm. Bristol Zoo later sent two male white tigers to Dudley Castle Zoo, which I think Bristol Zoo also owns. Sincerely Paul
Christie,
Welcome. You comment like you have been around White Tigers? How about a bit of history and an introduction? I you don't want to do it publicly, please email me at wburck3@aol.com as I would like to meet you, as it were. LOL
Again welcome, and we will look forward to your insight. Just say they are all wonderful, or you may have Mary Ann on your case, right Paul. LOL
Wade
Chistie,
Mary Ann likes you already. Do you know the world famous, star of stage and screen, Dr. Josip Marcan?
Wade
Christie, are any of your white tigers completely deaf? Sincerely Paul PS: Where did your white tigers come from?
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