Anonymous said...
Does it really matter if Clyde Beatty trained or just presented? Just the fact that people are still knocking him or defending him in 2008 means that the guy did do something.
Will people still be talking about W.G.B. 50 years from now, thats what you should be asking yourself in the mirror!
Resource: http://www.circusinamerica.org
The legendary Clyde Beatty is our most famous example of the American style. Born somewhere in Ohio, sometime around 1903 (Beatty himself claimed several conflicting versions), he came briefly under the influence of the great Hungarian trainer Louis Roth, did a polar bear act, and acquired his first caged cat act in 1925. He would eventually leave much of the training of his animals to others.
Lets offer this example of spin:
Rick Pfening said about Mr Beatty in one of his eBay listings:
"He was the single most famous circus performer in America from the early 1930s until his death in 1965, and only Gunther Gabel-Williams became more famous, and GGW had the Ringling publicity machine behind him in the era of mega-media while Beatty worked on RBBB only a few times and only in Madison Square and Boston Garden before the era of a thousand television stations hungry for content.
This comment to a picture of Clyde holding tiger cubs, as he only used jungle bred killers, from a fan in the Netherlands which is in Europe had no response what so ever:
Anonymous said...
Seeing this picture of Clyde Beatty with tigercubs. it just reminded me a little bit of some pictures from the circus Krone homepage which shows Martin Lacey with 3 male lioncubs born during Easter. They are beining handraised by mr lacey becaus their mother has not enough milk.
Regards
A circusfan from the Netherlands
i've been trying to stay out of this round because i know that the only way wade would say anything good about clyde beatty would be if he found out beatty's mother was from a european family. This from Henry Edgar who touted me as a "SuperStar" which I respectfully declined, and also declined it for Clyde.
Maybe the word RADICAL that is thrown at others, might be appropriate in the Circus Dictionary?
Posts
24 comments:
Let me muddy the waters a bit and suggest that Dan Rice was a bigger superstar than either CB or GGW. His career lasted longer. He was an even bigger household name, in an era before media like radio and TV and glossy magazines helped to sell Beatty or GGW. And 100 years after his death he was the subject of a bestselling critically acclaimed biography, something I suspect we won't see down the road for either CB or GGW. Could Rice have been an even bigger "star" had he worked on Barum Coup or Barum Bailey? Could he have filled The Garden? Frankly Barnum himself was the draw at the Garden then, and I don't think he would have shared the spotlight willingly with a clown who would have made fun of him.
I'll give second place to Beatty, though it would be a much harder call had GGW been an actually Beatty contemporary competing for the same audience. Beatty's 40 cat act might have still had an edge. It's hard to say for sure.
Ben
Here you go with your spin Wade. I did not dicredit any og the tricks mentioned and in fact I would complemrent any of a number of trainers who have trained this difficult stuff, just like the number of horse trainers that have trained high trot and other more difficukt stuff. Now again how about one of you capable trainersw doing the jumps and rolls[ now don't spin that you know exactly the GGW trick I am Referring to. Obviously you have alot of tigers there to choose from and time to do it.
Now vote for Super star status? Beat6t's name was significent to American public for some sixty years, and still is. General public would even now be vague about GGW unless they liked going to circuses. Beatty was featured in full length major motion pictures plus kids saturday "SERIALS". Beatty had more cats and especially mixed in the cage than Gunther. He owned his own major American railroad circus for a number of years. His name was also part of the title of other major American circuses that he did not own. He twice owned his own private zoo. Gunthers name has never been part of any of that, nor his ownership. Superstar in and out of the cage acclaimed by press and public alike and not PR spin. The one and only Clyde Beatty. Who was a Super Star in another field of artistry by general public acclaim? John Wayne or the great thespian motion picture star of great variety roles John Barrymore? In other words Barrymore had more tricks than Wayne, but certainly the Duke is the guy.
Johnny,
I thought you weren't coming back? You've said it so many times, I thought you were serious. I felt remorse because, I do WELCOME you here. Keep in mind there are rules, and that's why we are trying to set a standard on which to judge. Just vote Clyde or Gunther to the standards list set. Don't interject.
This one is MY list. After we make a tally then we can discuss intangible like astro turf/natural surface or 100 games in a season as opposed to 75. Your beliefs and statements on training, have been documented, John. Don't waste your breath.
Your and Ben's vote don't count this time. Cast again. Clyde or Gunther. Use only MY Standard. I gave you a chance to set a standard first. Let me have a chance.
Wade
Just a vote...And I've seen both perform,for superstar statis would have to go with GGW. He made it look easy,smooth,and,yes even sexy....Hold the nasty remarks fellows,it's just the way I see it....And how come no WOMEN are on the ballot???
Margaret,
I suggest the women like everyone else is terrified to come into this warm WELCOME world and make a vote.
I will also suggest, rather I will demand, that your vote might be different if it was Myself and Gunther on the sexy list. And yours doesn't count because you offered an opinion. Sexy is an intangible that Harriet Beatty might differ with. Just Gunter or Clyde based on the list.
Wade
Wade - ok, my vote would be Gunther. I prefer the performer look to the hunter look. Just my humble female opinion, you sexy thing.
Jeannie
Wade you are once again running ahead of yourself. It was not Mr. North who delayed the Garden opening waiting for Beatty to recover. It was John Ringling, who did not care for cat acts period, but was aware of Beattys impact on the New York public.
I have no doubt in my mind that both were of course "super stars". But obviously to no discredit of Gunther, Beatty was a more obvious public figure all thru the years. Bear in mind that his name was on a major circus title, even during the Gunhther Gebel saga. What is the big deal?
Johnny,
Accuracy is paramount in the writing of history, and I appreciate the correction about John Ringling North, I misunderstood this quote from Roger:"John Ringling brought him to the Garden dates from 1931 to 1934. When Nero nailed him in 1932, Mr. John delayed the Garden opening another full week to give Beatty further time to heal up and get the act in shape." I am sorry.
I suggest the Name was used by Beatty Cole because it was available, and for no draw purpose. It would be odd to drop it, in this time of needing an attraction, if it was that valuable as a draw. When it was reused 2 years ago, it was suggest that my act would be used because the name Clyde Beatty is synonymous with a big cage act. I suggested that was a wrong notion as the only "big" act Beatty Cole had had in recent memory was Marcan and Susan Lacey, and she only made one season. The new Clyde Beatty circus went out and folded. I don't think the name is a draw at all, but you will probably suggest bad promotion or some ghost from the past could have made it work. In regards to New York loving him. I think Gunther in the walk of fame speaks volumes for love. Venice loved him to, I saw the bumper sticker. Although Gunther didn't own one, or have his name on one, a circus was bought just to get him and his services, and he was named after a great Circus.
SuperStar was not in the vernacular. Foremost Subjugator was. He was never, even by his co authors and publicists referred to as a SuperStar. IT WASN'T A WORD. Until some wonderful fan decided, it wasn't right that Gunther be the only one to be called that. Todays vernacular has added "Monster" to the vocabulary to distinguish greatness. Do you want that one for Beatty also. Monster SuperStar. What will the next generation use to distinguish greatness. Will we give that to him also? This is not a debate John. Debates delay the inevitable. Using the list write to headings John. Clyde and Gunther. Each definition you feel meets the man, put a mark under his name. When finished count up the marks. Who has the most yes's is your Huckleberry. Intangibles can be discussed at the jackpot bench.
And no whimping out, by calling it a draw no ties allowed. If you think you come up with equal marks for each one study it and do it again. No hung jurys. Clyde or Gunther.
Wade
There you go again. It is not true in any sense of the word that a circus was bought to get his services. A group of performing animals owned by Carla Williams were booked by Irvin Feld to be a replacement for animals that would go to a newly framed second unit of the GSOE. Ringling PR spread that SPIN that was not true. GGW was not the "toast of Europe" or of his native Germany as Carola had merged with Togni and Castillo and Gunther and her animal acts were in Italy appearing and we know elephants were combined with Togni for a large herd and dual presentation with GGW and one, Togni. Carola would eventually sell these animal acts that were booked with Ringling and then GGW would become an Employee of Ringling at a considerable increase in salary.
Gunther actual name was never used in PR for the circus in any form. It was always, "see the greatest animal trainer". Only for that PR spin of his two year retirement tour. In circus history circles it is referred to in a humourous vein as similar to the many season announcement of the Grand Triumphal Farewell tour of Buffalo Bill. Called in shorter terms, doing a "Buffalo Bill". I am surprised and thought you were more aware that a circus was "bought" to secure the services of GGW. was preposturous and totally not true and in fact Carola did retain her circus and its wtqtrs. and believe she was involved in European circus operations after GGW. So bear in mind his nAME DID NOT APPEAR in any newspaper ads, etc. until that farwell tour and we know he never retired until illness forced him to leave the show. Now they did use his name extensively to try and publicize his son. Amazing. Once again I am not in any way knocking GGW. I have the highest regard for him and believe a number of his training exploits and presentation will never be seen again. My father liked to say, "there is only one Babe Ruth, Joe Louis and Clyde Beatty." Now we have had a Mohammed Ali, GGW, and lots of suspect ball players to unseat Mr. Ruth, so life goes on. Too bad you are so worked up and I guess frustrated.
I for one vote for Gunther with no comment here
GGW!
Mary Ann
Johnny,
"Worked up and frustrated!!!!" Listen Mr. Kettle, calling the pot "worked up and frustrated". So as not to waste more time with "unsubstantiated paper" being hung, let me me brief. Hanging on my wall is a full page 3 color ad from the Venice Gondolier Dec. 22, 1984. Half has a photo of Gunther advertising the opening of the Red Show Dec. 27-Dec. 30, with the heading, The Greatest Wild Animal trainer of All Time!!!Gunther Gebel Williams. The other half is a picture of me, advertising the opening of the Blue Show Jan.24-Jan.27 with the heading Celebrating 100 years of the Ringling Bros. There are hundreds of other times when they used his name, and I suggest they knew the power of it. Don't waste more time, just vote Beatty or Gebel. No opinions or intangibles.
Wade Burck
No Doubt about it, Gunther!
Joe
Johnny,
So you can keep track it is 4 to 0 in favor of Gebel.
Wade
Margaret,
I talked to your son last night, and asked if he was going to vote. He want's a silent vote, which I wont allow. I seems even after being born in this "welcome" world, and having "made his bones" like that other secret society the mafia, he is afraid to cast a public vote. I am waiting for my other contributers to vote, and our zoo friends. Maybe he will be more comfortable in gang situation.
Wade
Johnny,
Just a note. It is now 5 to 0 Gebel on top. So far all the votes are from the cold democratic outside world. You better start politicking in that welcome/make your bones deal, and get them to the polling booth, as long as they are registered and have a name. We are only going to run this election for 2 weeks. Casey, Ben, Jim, Joey, Adam, Kimberely, Adaline, Paul, Margaret I am calling you personally. We have guards posted.
Wade
I suggest they are not from far enough into the "cold Democratic world". After it was pointed out to me the other day by a friend, that I have no clue what the "public" thinks, or wants to see. I put this info on trial by "public". You will note that neither side is even close to rite. In my survey, I asked 20 non-circus friends of mine over the phone (I could list their occupations, but will only if it is asked for) who is the most famous animal trainer GGW or Clyde Beatty? Here is the shocker, only three people recognized the names. These were male and females, ranging from 23 to 52. More of a shocker was that the three that recognized the names, only recognized Clyde Beatty. The three of them (1 in Phx AZ. 1 in Paris TX, 1 in Puyallyup WA.) had watched "ring of fear" on AMC recently. I thought to myself "this can't be" so on the lot the next day I asked 20 random patrons who was more famous Clyde Beatty or GGW, 2 knew GGW, 1 knew CB, and 1 knew both, then told me he had no idea who was more famous. So far, GGW 1 CB 3 out of 40 people, now I decide to call the original 20 people back and ask "who is the greatest animal trainer ever" I got 11 votes Crocodile hunter, 3 votes for the dog whisperer and the remaining 6 were I have no idea. So I am working on my Aussie accent and practicing holding venomous snakes in an attempt to hit the big time as an animal trainer. My daughter can help me out cause she has every thing crocy was in, and let me tell ya, he was in alot.
Casey, thanks for the laugh and big grin. So typical of the audience at large and gives us pause to take ourselves too serious. Roy Rogers who? LOL
Casey,
Yes, what are those names, now that you brought it up? Did you find a new truck yet? I you do know, what the public wants, let us know. Everybody has offered suggestions, yet business seems to be down. Even Solei, as I understand.
Wade
I vote for Gunther.
I do believe though Gunther's name is more respected today by the general public then Beatty's.
Logan
I worked for BOSS(GGW)for 6yrs and there is no person on earth greater than BOSS.He loved us and made sure we were safe and taken care of.I've meet alot of traniers and I know all about BOSS thing's most people know nothing about so it's BOSS(GGW)for me.Superstar (HA) his way beyond that,cochise
Cochise,
Welcome. I didn't know you were still around. Are you still in the business?
People who worked around Boss knew what/who he was, more so then the ones who just watched him perform miracles. A reporter asked me one time, "why do you call him Boss?" And I looked at him, and said, "why wouldn't I?"
Come back again, with some GGW stories.
Regards,
Wade
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