Below is a great piece about "perceptions." Interestingly, the researchers found that people had two different ideas of what they were seeing based on whether it was a male or female. It brilliantly address's people forming opinions on what they are seeing from an animal, based on their personal bias. Are we actually seeing what is occurring or are we "wanting" to see something basing it on "human emotions" and what we want it to be instead of what it actually is. That is a question that I have asked of many for many years, usually followed by anger that I am questioning their opinion. One example, activist's will claim that elephants "swaying" is in response to boredom, stress, and lack of space in which to "roam" in captivity. Elephant trainers will claim "swaying" is in response to anticipation to performing, and that it is natural for an animal that enjoys what it is doing. Who is correct, and who is only basing what they see on their own personal bias? Are both the activists and the elephant trainers wrong? Or are both of them right?
Let's test our "bovine" and "equine" knowledge by watching the three clips above, two professional and one amateur of an incident that occurred last year. Why are the bull and horse reacting as they are? Don't figure in the humans, only conclude what the bull and horse were doing and why. I have my idea's, let's hear what yours are. Will you base you conclusions on scientific fact, or on personal bias depending on whether you like bull fighting or not.
The WEIRD Psychology of Elephants | The Thoughtful Animal, Scientific American Blog Network
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12 comments:
Ok, I'll play . . .
I watched all three videos, and conclude that the horse, once rid of its rider, seems to have a true appreciation of the idea that the best place for it to be is wherever the bull isn't. I got to think that the exit must have been blocked, or the horse would have found it.
The bull, on the other hand . . . er, hoof ... seems to demonstrate no such singleness of purpose. It seems to pursue the horse, with evident evil intent, seeking to inflict more mayhem, but seems easily distracted by the myriad humans, not realizing that it is they, not the horse, who intend him harm.
How'd I do?
I know nothing of bullfighting,only the images that you post here.The bull shows aggression towards the horse initially.I reckon that as both animals are conditioned to the arena it appears they move around it as they would if the fight had continued with rider.At one stage the bull passes the horse without aggression. The bull seems mildly distracted by the bullfighters attempts to distract it. As both animals are used to a routine, they seem to exhibit what they remember. If any distress is occuring other than the sword in the shoulder for the bull, it is that the rouutine has been changed and there is no order for them other than, many more bullfighters than previous. That's my 50 cents.
Cheers
Glenn
Bruce and Glenn,
Thank you for your insight. Most impressive as you have show you know a "bit" about animal behavior. There are a lot of "animal experts" out there, whom I am hoping will weight in with their insight, before I step on the hot plate. :) That said, I am going to let this link "sit" for a few days giving them the opportunity to give their opinions also, so it doesn't get pushed back in the archives, and lost.
I posted a question to "The Elephant Team" from facebook a couple of months back asking for explanations of the various videos available of "supposed" elephant abuse, such as an individual filmed using a hot shot after they were quoted on their website and in interviews stating they "never use a hot shot," as well as the recent undercover Ringling video. Not a single response until yesterday, in a personal email. The individual stated they had just seen the the above mentioned thread, and if they had seen it earlier they would have offered an explanation, but as they hadn't, they didn't care to respond now...... Go figure.
Wade
Wow, great footage. I wonder if anyone realizes how hard it is to come out of one of those saddles, they are built so the rider can sit upright with front, back and side pieces confining him. It's a great piece of designing, have ridden in them. I don't like them because of the difficulty of getting out of them, that is dangerous in it's self. Until now did not realize the force the bull behind him to move a 1400 lb horse. The bull is obviously intent on getting to and extinguishing the item of agitation. i.e. horse. These bulls from birth I believe, see no man on the ground until the bull arena and are forever agitated on horse back from a young age and are tested to see if they have what it takes for the bull ring.These bulls are bred for aggression so he is going after what angered him and he is very, very angry. It is amazing to see how tunnel visioned he was, the smaller men were an agitation to him but his main goal remained the horse.
The horse is by nature a flight animal although he can be trained to go into the bull, I don't believe he would do it of his own desire.... proof in video. Unlike a cutting horse which works with domesticated cattle these horses sense the danger, it's their nature. The horse was caught by the bull and by his own agility he remained upright, a tribute to his breeding; these horses are amazingly agile I have trained many. The effort was so great by the horse that the rider was tossed aside like a rag doll and then by nature knowing the danger fled the scene. The bull, still intent on eliminating the his aggressor, continuously sought his enemy, it was amazing to see the natural behavior of both species.
Kudos to the men who put their lives at risk to save the horse, it was amazing to see how they were only able to distract the bull for seconds at a time. I am sure since there was no place for the horse to be safe the outcome would have been who tired first.
Madame Col.,
Great insight. The few times I have ridden in one of those saddles, I was very uncomfortable because I felt trapped, as if I was held in, and if something happened, I wasn't going to get away. If the horse flips backwards, it's coming down on you. I realized you wouldn't be riding anything but a well trained horse in this type of saddle, but spending most of my life on new/green horses, the "what if" factor is pretty imbedded in my brain. :) I you look at the massive muscling on the front end of these fighting, they are bred to be "battering rams" capable of knocking something that weights twice as much as they do, off of it feet. The whole purpose of the stages of a corrida is to get that massive, massive front end down so that the astoca can be placed quickly and cleanly.
You being a horse trainer of world respected ability, analyzed "horse" brilliantly, a "flight" animal. You know I love horse's, with all my heart, but they have been wrongly "romanticized" down through history, to the point where people now object to eating them, while it is alright to eat a cow, a chicken, a sheep, a pig, etc. etc. I promise for every general who was carried magnificently into battle on his faithful mount, there were 10 who were dumped on their ass, as their "faithful" mount turned tail and fled when the fighting got heavy. :) Not many of those horse's "glamorized" or retired to the generals private stable, because it's not what folks want to read or know about. You, as a great trainer of horse's, accept that of them, they are what they are, but your respect, admiration, and love for their "train-ability" is obvious in your words.
Madame Col. continued,
"The effort was so great by the horse that the rider was tossed aside like a rag doll and then by nature knowing the danger fled the scene. The bull, still intent on eliminating the his aggressor, continuously sought his enemy, it was amazing to see the natural behavior of both species."
Here's where I disagree with you, and I think you missed it. Obviously once the horse lost the control of the rider, he panicked and fled. That's a horse, it need's the comfort of "control." The bull initially was intent on carrying out his attack on the horse, but of everything I have studied of these bulls and a herd animal, they stop their aggression once their "adversary", in this case the horse, flees. They don't pursue with an "blitzkrieg", "shock and awe", "slash and burn" attitude. That's a human trait. I believe this bull at a certain point started "herding" this horse as he would herd other bulls/cows, his herding instinct being much more developed, spending his life outside "herding", then the horse, most likely being a stallion, who has spend generations stalled singly. Additionally, I think the horse was allowing himself to be "herded" as they were both looking to get out of the arena. Watch the first tape at :50. The bull stays to the inside, using the wall to "herd" the horse. He actually run's past the horse.(you wouldn't do that if you were pursing) Look at the horse watching the bull, and as the bull turns into the matadors, the horse turns with him, instead of taking that opportunity to bolt past. No, this horse was being "herded." At 1:10 the bull had an opportunity to "kill" the horse as it was being held, but instead was distracted by the matadors.
Madame Col. continued,
At 1:13, note the bull again "pursuing", or is he "herding" the horse, staying to the inside with the horse following the wall? Note the bull at 1:35 cut through the middle of the ring, completely ignoring the distractions of the matador's in an effort to keep the horse in his sight. Again, is he "pursuing" or "herding?" At 1:38 I really believe he is "herding" the horse, as he completely ignores the matadors distractions. At 1:46 the matador get's a perfect angle to "cut" the bull away(as a cutting horse would) yet the bull ignores him. Nobody else got a "clean cut" on the bull until exactly 2:08 when Diego Ventura brilliantly "cut" both the horse and the bull. Watch his right hand fan the horse to the inside as his left hand and hat completely pull the bull into a circle, and he instantly turns to see what the horse is going to do next. Diego Ventura "herded" both the bull and the horse because he is a human with the ability to think and reason, differently from the horse and the bull who were acting "instinctively." He then directs all his attention on the horse, realizing the "nut job" that is a horse in panic situations, might do something stupid. At exactly 2:21 just before the tape ends Ventura puts himself in a position to watch both animals. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant move on his part.
That is my take on it. Thank you all for participating with great insight.
Wade
Wade As soon as I can sit down to analyze your comments with the tape I am going to do so. My immediate question though is why the bull if herding is still intent on attacking the horse when getting near him. However I haven't looked at it through your eyes and am anxious to look at it again now. Adios
Madame Col.,
After the initial charge, when the bull realizes the horse is fleeing and not returning for an counter charge, you will not a slower movement in the animal, and a fading into the middle, attracted by the matadors yes, but at the same time ignoring them. He then shadows, "herds" the horse using the wall as a guide. What you see as charging, may only be the bull lowering and "flipping" his head, driving the horse forward. I sure you have seen the same "sling/flip" of the head when a group of horses are running loose play "herding." I believe I saw Baby "flip" you off on a number of occasions during the Baby/Robin act. The arrogant, aren't I special one's will do that on occasion attempting to get their "master" to "herd." :)
Wade
Bruce,
The bull doesn't know it is the humans who will cause him harm. As Madame Col. pointed out, he doesn't see a man on foot, until he reached the ring, and is provoked his whole like by a horse with a man mounted. It's the horse he is after initially.
Wade
Glenn,
You picked up on a few things that I did, which points to you years of dealing with exotic's and wild animals. One misconception, only the horse is conditioned to the ring, having entered it many times. The bull only enters once, and if all goes as planned leaves drug behind a team of mules. Dr. Temple Grandin pointed out a few years ago that an animal will move in a circle/arc more comfortably and with less stress then ones run down sharply angled chutes(ironically most experienced zoo/animal men knew that, but like "joining up" just assumed everyone else knew it too.) It looked more to me like the bull was using the wall to herd the horse, making every effort to station himself between the matador's and the horse. Look at the tapes, if you haven't already I post on the 26th of Sept:
The Circus "NO SPIN ZONE": Arrojado & Jose Maria Manzanares--May 1, 2011
You will see the pardoned bull "herding" the escort steers out of the plaza in an "arc" with a flip of his head to cut them and get them moving in the direction he wants. You will also see in the tape of the two bull fighting, extreme aggression, until one turns tail and runs. He is pursued "half heartily" for a moment without the aggression that was there a moment earlier. In the other tape you will see the "lead" bull turn the whole herd in a new direction with just a "flip" of his head. A dozen mounted cowboy used to move a thousand head of cattle from Texas to Missouri using the same tactic's to "herd" that the bull and other herd animals use instinctively.
ISN'T THE WORLD OF ANIMAL'S AN INCREDIBLE WORLD INDEED, MATE.
Wade
Sorry I'm a little late into the ring!
To start..I have no "in-ring" experience.. but have attended a "bullfight" in Madrid and in San Juan.
I've been thinking it over.. and will set-up my virtual scientific? experiment- to answer my intial question .. "Will a young "wild" bull attack a young "wild" colt??" I'm trying to determine when/if WE chance their natural instincts.
Am I on the right track??
Regards..
klsdad
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