Sunday, January 16, 2011
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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13 comments:
Are you kidding me? It is hard to jolt me awake most mornings, but this display did the job pronto.
Just shows that we are not that far from the Roman cruelty of yesteryear. Shame on humans.
Dennis
Dennis,
Really? Explain your thoughts please. Who was being cruel, the horse or the human? Is boxing cruel? Cruel seems to imply wanting the suffering, or causing suffering with indifference. That's not the case with bullfighting. That's why it is ended quick. So there will be no suffering. Romans wanted the suffering, fans and bullfighters don't, again why it is ended quickly.
Wade
Bull Wade
I have sat in some plaza de toros in Mexico, both the rinky-dink small town ones and even in the capital and witnessed some pretty awful 'quick' kills. Granted, I would not like to be standing anywhere in the huge ring when that great beast (after being shocked) runs in. However, the mounted sadists will take at least half the capacity from the bull with their very sharp pole knives.
They know where the effective muscles lie and go for them.
If the man can kill quick what the hell is the horse needed for? To run in and bite the bull's spine? There my friend brings to mind the Roman ampitheater.
I love the pagentry, music, excited crowds etc. Horseback bull fighting is a thing of beauty. I can do without the blood. Butchery belongs in the slaughter houses. Gracias for giving me a say in this. Regards, Dennis
Anonymous Moron,
You couldn't even spell his name right, Dennis and it is right there for you to copy. Folks have to keep their chimpanzee's away from the computer.
Wade
Dennis,
I note the use of the term "rinky dink". As has been noted often, there are good and bad in every profession. From logging with elephants, to training dogs. I cringe at some of the things I see advocated on "dog whisperer" programs on national tv. A criteria or standard of a fighting bull is courage and stamina. How would you gage/judge that? If bad is noted, is that an indication of the profession, and that is the mind set to take. Or is it the individual who lacked the skill. A quick kill is the end result with no suffering. If a matador/rejoneador lacks the skill the crowd expresses it's displeasure and he is soon looking for other work. It has been suggested that animal trainers be graded and judged, and is there a similar standard to eliminate the bad so that it doesn't taint the good in the circus?
Bullfighting is criticized by animal rights activists, referring to it as a cruel or barbaric blood sport, in which the bull suffers severe stress and a slow, torturous death. In Spain, opposition to bullfighting is referred to as anti taurina. Opposition to animals in circus is known as anti circus.
Supporters of bullfighting argue that it is a culturally important tradition and a fully developed art form on par with painting, dancing and music, while animal rights advocates hold that it is a blood sport resulting in the suffering of bulls and horses.
Have you studied it, so that you can distinguish good from the bad, Dennis? How often has the issue been stated, in regards to animal activists and the circus and zoo's "you don't know what it is about, have haven't taken the time to understand, that crazy peta doesn't have a clue etc, etc, etc. Insert as many rebuttals to the activists as you would like. Your book would seem to suggest that you endorse animals in the circus, yet the antis who know less about it then you, would suggest that is "Roman cruelty of yesteryear. Shame on humans."
Wade
Put the bifocals back on Wade. I was not writing as a arm chair quarter back. I was present at most things I talk about no matter the subject. Not as an expert but engaged student of life.
In the plaza de toros de Acapulco I had the pleasure of sitting with a real expert and of course afficianado of the corrida. I learned some of the rules and point scoring from him. The weakening of the bull I saw myself.
As for the estocada (killing move) 3 out of the 6 were not clean. Waving and shouting workers were needed to make the bull swing wildly left and right so the sword could cut its way through vital arteries as is lay inside the bull.
Further, it does not do me justice to have my name in the same paragraph with the word 'peta'.
My book was not an expose in any sense. It was nothing more than my story. But I think you already know that.
Thanks again for getting my 2 cents in. Dennis Younger
Dennis,
Wooo, why so touchy. "My book was not an expose in any sense. It was nothing more than my story." Who suggested it was an expose? "nothing more than my story," is what an opinion is, yet an activist would label it cruel, rightly pointing out the foundation of the Roman Coliseum, where Irvin Feld and Judge Hoffheinz made every effort to "return" and "sign the deal."
I asked you earlier, Is boxing cruel? Blood is often spilled? Permit me to go further, often permanent injury or even death is the end result. Is football cruel? Blood is often spilled? Often permanent injury of even death is the end result. Is Greco Roman wrestling cruel? Often blood is spilled, as well as the possibility of permanent injury or even death. It has it's foundation in the Roman Coliseum?
Dog's have been permanently injured attempting to leap at a thrown frizbee. Some have had to be put down, due to the severity of the injury. Is throwing a frizbee cruel? Or was the person throwing it cruel.
How do you test an animals bravery, if that is a breeding criteria/standard, Dennis. A breeding criteria/standard for an Arabian horse is charisma. How is that tested? A breeding criteria/standard for a hunting dog is an ability to retrieve. How do you test that ability, without hunting, which results in blood and death, as quick as possible so that as little suffering as possible occurs, of one of the three participants?
Wade
Let me see here Wade. A bull raised to never see a man on foot until the corrida and a human boxer.
Any similarities here? NO !
The glaring difference is the boxer has a choice.
Unless of course his cousin Guido, to whom he owns a lot of money, is his manager. Cheers Dennis Y
Dennis Y,
This is interesting, "The glaring difference is the boxer has a choice," because "choice" is what animal activist's suggest is an animals "right." You were formerly in the circus, and wrote a book on the subject, which was not an expose but your story, and presented a cage act as well as at a animal park, where you were injured. Are you suggesting that animals do have "rights/choice?"
Wade
Northlander Wade
Are you familiar with the hand fashioned glasses type of contraption that Eskimos make? Sometimes from bone even. Cuts down on the extranious and unneeded glare. I suggest you try a pair of those babies to help keep you focused better on some of the subjects you attempt to write about.
I merely stated in my first post that blood was out of place in public spectacle. Specificaly, bull fighting. You then interjected boxing, peta and animal training. Is the kitchen sink coming next?
It would be more fun to debate you if you wore those aforementioned glasses,and stuck to the issue, but there is more chance
that a palm tree will sprout outside your door in N.Dakota this Spring.
My last comment on this subject is this: Animals may be used in human entertainment. I did it. There is a muddy line between 'using' and 'abusing'. Can anyone tell me that butchering a bull in public is merely 'using'?
These bulls are majestic beasts. To terrorize them, slice thier muscles, wear them down to pathetic looking hulks of their former selves, and then kill them I suggest is not a fitting end to that majestic beast. Shame, shame, shame. Anti-Centaur Dennis Younger
Anti-Centaur Dennis Younger,
Again I can only say, interesting. The addition of the thought "muddy line between using and abusing" is also intriguing, given your background and your book. Why so defensive, and activist sounding? Can't you and I offer rebuttal without resorting to that?
As you didn't seem to like the analogy to boxing, or apparently reining, what about Falconry, when one bird flies free, has a choice, and kills another bird? Is he trained to kill, or trained to return to the falconer? Sport, art, or bloody spectacle best left in the roman coliseum? Using or abusing. Who is used and who is abused. Who has no choice, the captive bird trained to return, or the wild bird minding his own business?
Wade
I really admire Mendozas horsemanship, but I'd rather not watch a bullfight.
Huge financial loss when a horse like that is killed. Years of training. Sad.
panavia999,
Nobody like for things like this to happen, especially Mr. Mendoza. I've been there, done that once in my life and it is the coldest, emptiest feeling you can imagine. In fact, you can't unless you have been there. That is why heavy precautions are taken, and hours, and hours of training are given to the horse. The sad fact of any war, is that some are going to come home, and some are not. The better trained you and your soldier's are the better chance of success.
Pablo Hermoso de Mendoza is one of the best at what he does. Proof of that is, the number of great horses, Coganacha, Gallo and his son Chenel, Chicuelo, Danube to list just a few, whom are retired now and serving as sires for a new generation of warrior.
Wade
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