"When something is... up to four tons...and that animal...pushes you against a wall or whatever inside tight quarters, you don't have a chance. It's just that powerful an animal," renowned zookeeper Jack Hanna said.
AM I MISUNDERSTANDING JACK, OR DOES HE CONTRADICT HIMSELF BELOW!!!!!
Hanna said that he, too, believes James' death was an accident.
"I can tell you I've seen elephants in the wild go through the brush and the bush and it's like a bulldozer...because they eat 200 or 300 pounds a day," Hanna said.
JACK, DUE RESPECT "ASTRONAUT OR A NASCAR DRIVER!!!!!
If it is true that something good comes from something bad, I think with all the animal incidences that have happened from elephants to orca that have been concluded to be accident's and not attacks, they may stop assuming that there is abuse every time a similar "accident" happens in the circus or private sector. "Accident" may have been what made Jack reference astronauts and Nascar drivers, as we know space shuttles and cars don't "attack".
Officials at the Knoxville zoo now believe that James' death was a tragic accident.
"The elephants acted as they should in that situation. In other words when they received a command, they responded. She responded in this case," Jim Vina, executive director of the Knoxville Zoo, said.
The 8,000 pound African elephant backed James into a stall on Friday, pushing her into metal bars.
I seems the director and I have come to the same conclusion, it was the metal bars.
Posts
19 comments:
Anybody that would go in a compound with a big african or even asian in a zoo is nuts. no zoo shouls allow it. Elephants are very dangerous animals and unle4ss they are trained and handled by a real professional they should be avoided in close encounter or whatever its called. tanglefoot herriott
WHOA HERRIOTT!!!!!!!
What in the world did you just say!!!!
"Anybody that would go in a compound with a big african or even asian in a zoo is nuts. no zoo shouls allow it."
John, are you suggesting that it is safer on an open lot of a tent show, then in a "compound" at a zoo, or that the confines of a collision are as dangerous as a "compound" at a zoo? Are you suggesting that elephants are dangerous in the zoo to zookeepers, but not dangerous to the public because they are not in the "compound". Are you suggesting that in the circus not only are they dangerous to the "real professionals" but also to the pubic? I hope that wasn't what you were saying, but it sure sounds like it.
As you state, "elephants are very dangerous animals and unle4ss they are trained and handled by a real professional they should be avoided"
Before we discuss what a "real professional" is I think I know what one is. That said, let me ask you if you have ever heard of an elephant named Janet. Far as I know she was trained by a "real professional," or at least he has lead us to believe that. He has even told us he was so good he could train her fast, not that inferior way that takes time as some not as professional advocate. This elephant Janet, who was either born a renegade as some professionals suggest, or was turned into a renegade as other professionals suggest, went on a couple of well publicized runaways notably in 1989 when she ran through a fair midway and into a lake(Irene from the same show, duffered a couple of years earlier in Wis.) Have you ever heard of this elephant Janet, or know who trained her, John? Was he a "real professional", and if so why was Janet like that? I guess you are suggesting it was safer because she was out in the open, and not in a "zoo compound", plus had been trained/handled by a real professional. In 1990 an elephant on the same show with Irene and Janet attacked a "real professional" and ran through a 1000 people. But back to Janet. In 1992 Janet, who was trained supposedly by a "real professional" and handled at the time by a "real professional" duffered again, and lucky wasn't in the confines of a "zoo compound" so she was able to really move around, and destroy some bleachers and try to kill a police officer, and injure 6 people, all with three people on her back. By the way where is Janet who was "trained and handled by a real professional" John? She should be about what 35-38?
Boy you are right John,when you say "Elephants are very dangerous animals and unle4ss they are trained and handled by a real professional they should be avoided in close encounter or whatever". "Close encounter" isn't a what ever, John. It is what an elephant ride is advertised as and announced at the circus today.
What do you say John, should elephants be banned in the circus because they are dangerous, or should we just let the folks take their chances as you have forewarned them? Or should the circus elephants be dealt with as the zoo elephants by going to a protected contact management plan? The zoo's are addressing the issue John. How are the "real professionals" addressing it John.
Regards,
Wade
Yes I trainede Janet and I did a very good professional job with her. Also she had trouped the season before with Rex Williams, so she already had "manners" and a little "baSIC TRAINING. The incidents you referred to at the sucfeeding times were, by your estimation, were in the hands of professionals. You say that. Now it is obvious that those zoo elephants have not had basic discipline training and subsequently pro handling, so they animals in effect are doing them a favor in not behaving. Circus elephants are trained to move about outside of a compound, animal walk, rdes, spec and performing in general, but again as stated, by a qualified professional. Certainhly this not always the case and in fact so-called professionals sometime leave much to be desired. You and most of us have become educated professionals by "doing" and being a graduate from the school of hard knocks and perserverance. I realize many zoo people have an exalted opinion of their abiklities and have not gone to that school I refer to. Come on Wade you already know all that and if you don't you have been a lucky guy. tanglefoot
Wade, In zoos I am referring to zoo keepers-employees. ON THE CIRCUS THE SAME HOLDS TRUE. i WOULD SUUGEST THERe is no longivety in regard to male elephants, male or female , african or asian. the only male asians are Tommy, Col, and Bo and nthey are all caterated and all had early training and handling by qualified people.Maybe the book on Bo isn't written yet. I recall the late young male from the Hawthorne her being on th road and the handlers were totally in over their head in abilities and during the time I trouped with them was an uncomfortable accident about to happe. Sadly it seems his days were numbered. This was at a crucial time in his young life. tpoo bad.tanglefoot
John,
You didn't answer my question(one of many again), "what happened to Janet?" I don't know who the trainers were when Janet went South, but are you suggesting that they were not "real professionals?" Who decides who is a "real professional" in the circus and who decides who is not a "real professional, John?" Is there an association or board that does the accrediting, or how do we know for sure if someone is a "real professional" or if they are not?
Let me ask you this John, do you remember an elephant named Hoxie? At one point he had a whole boat load of "real professionals" at his beck and call, who had been brought in. How did that deal work out, and where is Hoxie today?
As you mention Hawthorn, it is with due respect, and I say that risking the wrath of an anonymous mutt thinking my pathetic self is sucking up to you, as if I need to suck up to any animal trainer, that I have to tell you something. You know more about Gil Gray then I can ever hope to know, but by the same token I know more about Hawthorn then you will ever hope to know, also.
Have you ever heard of an elephant named Mike who became Tyke? She was trained by a "real professional" right? Where is Tyke at now?
Have you ever heard of an elephant named Billie? She was trained by a "real professional" as well as handled and trained by a "real professional," is that right or wrong, when she went south and tried to kill him, and became a hands off protected contact elephant from that day forward. Where is Billie now after a life time of "real professionals", John?
I'll answer your question, yes I know Nic. I had to take him out of his "compound",load and chain him into a trailer, after he spent over half his life as a protected contact elephant, at Hawthorn which had a boat load of "real professionals" at their disposal over the years. I had the honor of the same exhilarating pleasure, two months earlier when I had to take the above mentioned Billie as well as her stable mate, Freida out of their "compound" load and chain then into a trailer.
Some great generals have come out of West Point, as well as some boneheads like Custer. By the same token some great generals have come from the "trenches" and the "school of hard knocks," notably Herbert Butler Powell(no relation to Gee Gee) who joined up as a private in the National Guard, and died as a retired Four Star decorated General in 1989, but there have been a lot of knot heads dishonorably discharged from that school of hard knocks also, John.
I think more important John is how much of what you learn, you retain and use wisely, regardless of whether you learned it in a book, or in the trench's.
I have had 4 emails in the past hour asking basically the same thing, "did John say that elephants should be taken out of the circus because of the danger?" It appears I wasn't the only one who misunderstood John and I don't think you cleared it up. Do you think elephants should be removed from the circus, because they are dangerous? If not, who decides who is a "real professional" and qualified to work with them in a "compound" or otherwise.
By the way, Nic isn't dead, so he isn't "late."
I didn't realize King Tusk(I prefer that name to Tommy) had been gelded. When did that occur?
Answer the questions above one at a time please, John. The world is wondering what is up.
Regards,
Wade
At the risk of entering a broad brush painting contest and perhaps using terms not found in Webster's dictionary I'll offer a comment. I'd like to fancy myself as a fairly competent animal guy. I've trained a few zoo elephants and been around a lot more. I've also seen a lot of zoo elephant keepers, some quite good and some that were clueless. With a few exceptions,I don't think most zoo management has a clue about what is good hands-on training. If the keeper can enter the enclosure with a elephant and escape without medical attention that's probably good enough. If I were working elephants I'd like to work hands-on but if I were zoo management I'd go for protected-contact. Protected contact isn't as much fun and you lose some handling ability but it's much safer -- my zoo wouldn't be on national news explaining a sad situation.
As to "real professionals", they're much better than "real amateurs". Elephants can tell the difference pretty quickly. Perhaps circus management requires more than zoo management,e.g., the elephant guy can get them in and out of the truck and keep them in the general area of the ring. Zoos usually don't ask, or need, that much skill from their keepers. (Some keepers can, and have done, some great training but not very many, because they don't have to.) Real professionals aren't immuned from bad days, they just a more likely to have fewer of them.
Wade you are full of bullshit. Elephants in the circus is god given. It is a wojnderful combination in American circuses.
Jim,
Well said. That broad brush you mention is what I too was trying to avoid. I also agree about, PC from a management. Why risk anything? The absurdity that is "won's happen to me as I am a "real professional" is just that. When your profession has had just as many, if not more "accidents" you sure can't question another profession.
Incredible to me is this seeming reluctance to admit that an animal quadruple the size can kill or seriously injure a human, or horror of horror's that it actually may want to. That is can and may harm a member of it's species is acceptable, but not that it can and may harm a human. Just very odd that is is so beyond realm of comprehension.
The unfortunate women, who was killed at Sea World by the Killer Whale "playing to rough" as we see here with the steel bars obviously being the culprit is accepted today readily by academia. The autopsy report on the unfortunate women would seem to indicate the gleeful, exuberant Orca played her arm off at the elbow, and jollied most of her scalp off. I have come to realize that it was the roads fault the first time I got knocked down. If it hadn't of been there, I would have never hit it, and if I didn't hit it, that meant I wouldn't have been knocked down, Just knocked.
Wade
Steve,
The comment above is an example of letting an anonymous pass just to illustrate incredible ignorance, such as "elephants being the circus's God given right." Just amazing that some one like that has slipped through an institutional crack. Need we ask why the industry tanked? Yes, there are morons in everything, I just think the circus got way more then it's fair share.
Wade
In case blog readers are interested,
The anonymous comment, suggesting I am "full of bullshit" came from the same ip address as the comments by "Tanglefoot." I think we could have learned much if by his own estimation a "very good professional job" would have answered the questions he raised, particularly what/who is a "real professional?" A lot of you folks already know the answers to the other questions asked of John Herriott, which oddly he suggested, but didn't know the answer. One that I don't know, and wonder about, as John brought it up, is that "Tommy/King Tusk was castrated. Does anyone know if that is true, and where is that information available at?
Thank you,
Wade
Anonymous #2,
Although you comment was as ignorant as we would expect from an anonymous, it didn't have one statement right, which is why I choose not to post it. Even the sputtering about ip address's was incorrect. An ip gives a location, but not an identity as you stated. But if the ip address has been used in the past with a name, the staff marks that ip address with that persons name. If they chose to be "anonymous" as some other time to say something stupid, we know who it is, unless someone else is using their computer. BeDa BeDa BeDa, That's all folks!!!!
Wade
It was indirectly because of Jack Hanna that I learned about that Sports Illustrated article. He appeared on The David Letterman Show with a white tiger cub. My roommate at the time saw me watching this and said that there was a Sports Illustrated article about white tigers. That was in 1986 so the article is now 25 years old. It was on the newstands when Jack Hanna appeared on David Letterman. Years later he was on David Letterman again with another white tiger cub, named Lilly, who was cross-eyed. He said that one was the daughter of the one that swallowed his wife's wedding ring, so Taj must have been the one he had on previously. I think that anecdote about Taj swallowing his wife's wedding ring was in his autobiography Monkeys On The Interstate. Also I looked in my white tiger file and Taj was the only white tiger cub Columbus Zoo had in 1986. I assume that Ika was Lilly's father. Sincerely Paul
So now I am curious and would like to open a can of worms since I am home. What constitutes "real professional" as far as animal handling/presenting is concerned. I was highly criticized when I worked a select group of cats, on particular blogs as being "a hazard" since I didnt grow up as a "generational" in the animal field, yet I have spent the past 5 years inside the arena learning to present cats. I have been lucky to have the support, training, and insight over my past 6 years of handling and practicing cats by great animal trainers and presenters such as Mr. Burck, Lancelot Ramos, Mr. Larry Allen Dean, John Campolongo, Kay Rosaire (all of which by the way were first generation big cat trainers/presenters that were excellent), as well as many others and certain people had the generosity of trashing my name. Now I ask, what makes them a professional. Is it being born into the industry? Is it their time spent in and out of the ring with the animals? Wade I am sorry to interject, but I feel I need to bring this point up. Some great men have become animal trainers and presenters who were born in the business. And some great men have become trainers and presenters who weren't. Everyone starts somewhere. Fifth generation trainers have a great great gradfather who was a first. Have to sling a little mud once and a while lol. Hope all is well Wade, send my best to Adam and Elaine.
Nick
Nick,
There in lies the issue. What makes any of the folks you mention "real professionals?" Are they accredited by an association? Have they met a certain standard or requirement of education? Or are they "real professionals" because you want them to be, and somebody else want's somebody else to be a "real professional"? If you meet the USDA "hours" requirements, does that make you a "real professional" like GGW who didn't meet any USDA "hours?" Is the person who works with one act/one group of animals for 10 years a "real professional" like the person who works with 5 acts/5 different groups of animals in 10 years. What if one act/one group is superior and 5 acts/5 groups are junk? You have discovered, what I warned you of long ago, as I discovered long ago. It doesn't matter as there has never been a standard or set requirement. Only an opinion based on nothing other then, I like him/her or I don't like him/her. Not a mystery why there is not much left, is it Nick?
Good luck, you are in the warm and cuddly alligator pit now. Swim fast. LOL
Wade
I also saw Jack Hanne on The David Letterman Show again with more white tigers cubs appearing with Michael J. Fox. I am pretty sure that the white tiger cubs belonged to Josip Marcan and that Columbus Zoo was handrearing them for him. Sincerely Paul PS: I think that Jack Hanna has appeared on TV with Michael Dulaney from the Cincinnati Zoo. Maybe that was on Larry King.
I forget to mention something. The son in law of the President of Tunisia, who was just overthrown, had a pet tiger, which was eaten by local people. Sincerely Paul
Paul,
Now you have gone and done it. Joe Howell is going to have to keep Mary Ann under 24 hr. surveillance so she doesn't try to book a flight to Tunisia and deliver a beat down to those savage Tunisians. LOL
I have always questioned just how "educational", which is their major justification, the tv appearance's really are. I believe they are nothing more then self promotion or promotion for your institutions. I did many, many for Ringling and Marineland and the consensus 100% of the time from the audience/host was "oh, how cute." I really don't think it made anybody more aware of wildlife conservation or endangered species, as is claimed. If anything, it made them want to have one as a pet, even though you could advise against it until you were blue in the face.
Because it made me feel like a hypocrite I started working things like WWF into the interview, or turn the talk to the local zoological society. It didn't sit well with the Ringling folk who wanted only the show publicized. They started sending someone with me, and insisting that there be "something" Ringling in the background. That way when I went of the reservation, LOL, their agenda was still met.
Wade
Wade, I wonder if it would be less expensive to just parachute Mary Ann into Tunisia, although it might not be what that country needs right now. It's interesting seeing what's going on in Egypt now. Sincerely Paul PS: I think Mary Ann is missing all of these messages, but her ears must be burning, and she must wonder why. Sincerely Paul
Paul,
It is will all due respect that I goof on Mary Ann's devotion to felines of the world.
Wade
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