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Tuesday, August 24, 2010
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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12 comments:
I thought I would make a few comments about this act, but then decided I don't know what to say.
Wade, what say you? Dennis Y
I know you're going to tear me a new one for saying this, but there's something disquieting about animals acting so robotically, even when it's unique and sometimes amazing, especially when you see the missing teeth and eye injury. Like the amazing Russian act you posted some time back with referrences to the training methods used. I hope I'm wrong though.
Dennis,
You go ahead. I am more interested in what others think. I made up my mind long ago, now I want to hear others.
Wade
Wade, this isn't for publication since it tars a lot of people with the same brush, but it brings to mind a story told to me by the son or a russian dog trainer. They were putting together a new dog act and literally started from birth. As the puppies were born they sat them up in the corners of the trailer and didn't allow them to come down. This a-hole laughed when he told me they had to tie the mother up so she couldn't get to the pups as they were screaming bloody murder. I can only imagine what attitude those dogs had towards work if they survived and grew up. It still makes me sick. Since then it is tough to watch those amazing Russian acts without wondering what went into producing them.
I heard so much about this act so I expected a lot to see it. But when I saw this video it really dissapointed me and I was a litte bit bored. I think it'll be more impressive to see it "live" because elephants and tigers together in the cage ! But I find that the tricks are not from a high level en pretty basic !
Thomas
Way too long, too much comedy. Excellent training and presentatio. tOO BAD THE OLDER GUY HAS TO BE IN THERE. wHAT is the background of these people? Nice working Asian elephants and Tigers are very well trained. Quite unusual, but again way too long for any circus program. Too bad.
I agree with Tanglefoot, way too long. I think the ""old guy was in there to hang paper, and make sure the folks knew he was the Captain. I also have to agree with Anonymous, who although not in the circus(there might be something to learn here, show folks!!!!), noted the missing teeth and blind eye. and robotic attitude> I was also very suspect of the "tools" in their hands. Not a whip obviously. Possibly a hook hidden behind fluff? I just get the feeling by looking at how it is used, that it is not that either. I too have heard the "war stories" over the years about how the animals were trained in the Moscow Circus. Normally, I would weigh who was saying it and why, but in all cases, it was members of the Russian circus scene, whom did other disciplines, but were animal lovers. Rather the "make waves and rock the boat", they spent their lives(many generations) looking the other way. I am not saying any of it was true, just saying that it came from within, not from outside uneducated observation. I gotta admit that, and the fact that I know a little bit about animal training has always made me look at Russian methods very suspect. Just like in the "old days", when there was an unlimited source of animals, you could go through as many as possible to get "your" end result. History has shown that communist Russia's attempt at world domination in so many fields, from Ballet, circus, Space, Olympics knew no bounds or limits to how or what was done to reach that place at the top.
Anonymous, everything is for publication on the NO SPIN, if it is animal related. You need a name if you are going to personally attack someone, but as you did not, you offered insight which is open to debate by anyone, whom cares to. I want the world as perfect as it can get for a performing animal. It is not the performing that is bad, it is the method.
Wade
Wade
Thomas,
Very good. You are seeing what I told you when we first "met". What you hear. and what it is. may not be the same thing. That is a fact of in town once a year "show business." You are also seeing the importance of something being done quick and with ease, making what one does with an animal so much better then what someone else does. That is the importance of the presentation as a whole. Not just a name that you are familiar with. That is the essence of a "standard" which I always advocate.
Wade
Wade
First I thought "look how they are holding those sit-ups without even a glance from the trainers - wow". But the fact is that even lab rats can learn complicated things without direct cues from a trainer - if the consequences are automatic and sever enough. I wonder what gaf they came up with that made it preferrable to hold their feet up for 5 minutes at a time rather than put them down. Hmm, makes you wonder doesn't it?
And I, too would like to see what 'guides' those pom poms conceal.
Anonymous,
The fact that for the most part they are very "lousy" sit ups with the feet down and just a couple of inches of the pedestal in most cases should be a clue, if you are familiar with "automatic and sever" operant conditioning. On first glance, if something appears to good to be true, it usually is. Blink, look again and the obvious will normally appear if you are knowledgeable. If you are not, you may misinterpret even what you are seeing the second time, and draw a bad conclusion on something good. Knowledge will aid you in reaching the "right" conclusion every time.
Wade
At first I thought, now here is something different. I quite honestly get very bored lately with hindleg walking tiger tricks. Yes, I'm an old timer and don't call them 'behaviors'.
But this act didn't make much use of the two bulls. So at the end I didn't see much difference from other cat acts except there were 3 folks in the 'den of fury'.
Dennis J. Younger
I agree, BYJ. I get a bit sick of seeing the hind leg walks myself all the time as well. The industry needs to bring back more of those unique tricks, such as pyramids and jumping though hoops. Heck, why not a few chairs and bullwhips back in the arena as well?
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