Saturday, October 10, 2009
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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7 comments:
I see they have made this paddock alot larger than when I was there in late 78 with that tough male Sobic and Buckles broke as a punk. He terrorized the zoo staff there. He had a hippo in the pen with him and the barn behind wasn't there then.
Gary,
What do you think of this Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that they are now touting? John Herriott has already given his opinion, and I just wondered what other elephant men, present or past thought of it's validity. Two years ago, myself and a couple of other folks did an "informal" study of all the elephants in the United States that we could think of for the past 25 years that had bad issues such as aggressiveness and running. Although granted it was as I said an "informal" study, we were a bit taken aback to realize that 95% of all the problem elephants had been trained/handled when they were younger by one of 5 people.
Wade
Hell, I hope I don't catch any blame if he kicks some goofs ass! Really, this elephant had issues because of a lack of proper handleing IMO. I had left the Blue Show and came back to Fla and found out he was knocking everyone around there. They had no experienced elephant men there so I knew that Buckles broke him, so I did what I knew worked and walked in and laid him down, sat on his head. I then asked him for a situp and then up on the tub and the hardest thing for him was a hindleg stand. He was so soft from doing nothing but chaseing the hippo and goofs he thought he was tough. I never had to get tough with him,he seemed to realise I wasn't too afraid of him. He liked to work and got better behaved everyday. Then the damn zoo director who had been hit by him traded him for a female african. I blew the lot just before that.
Wade,
don't you think that if animals including elephants are trained to a high standard and that becomes their baseline that when around not so competent people that they will make the most of the situation when the opportunity arises.My 2p.
Glenn Sullivan
Glenn,
Yes, I do for all animals. But I don't think the first recourse is aggression, unless they have been put in that place initially. Their first recourse would be refusal, if they weren't already on the defensive. I think if an animal is trained with aggression, when they are released from that by a softer method or incompetence they will take advantage. I don't think they can distinguish between a softer method or incompetence initially if they have been "put under the gun". In the reverse, if an animal is trained gently and then handled/ridden by an incompetent or aggressive person, who may simply not know what to do, or who's rule of thumb is "if it isn't working hit it harder, get sharper spurs, crank it's bit, jerk it's collar and leash more severe, kick it in the head instead of the hip etc. you will have the same result of aggression/defense, using the weapons at the species disposal, crush, buck, bite, flee, etc.
That things we discovered in the above mentioned "informal" study were alarming. At some point in each of the "renegades" life one of those 5 individuals had either trained or handled them, either initially or at a later time. The moment they chose to "go south" was hotly debated, depending on who was your hero and who wasn't.
Given your unquestionable love and devotion to animals Glenn you and your English mates, should do the same "informal" study. Compile a list of as many of the bad/with issues elephants that you can come up with in your country, and list who trained/handled them at some point in their life. I bet you are as flabbergasted as we were.
Wade
Wade, that would be a very interesting and informative (and dare I say forensic) study to do on aggressive elephants, much like Buckles periodicaly lists a history of all the shows and owners an individual elephant has worked under. Then a seperate cross reference of; was the elephant trained in power tricks like the one foot stand?, was it also used as a work elephant?, was it independantly owned and worked by the same person for most of it's life?, was it part of a show herd that constantly changed handlers?, how many times had it been sold back and forth and seperated from the herd it was accustomed to? By cross referencing, you might be able to come to some pretty accurate conclusions beyond the "it just went bad" one that seems to be the conventional reason given.
In such a study, would you focus only on cows, since bulls may have a natural prepensity for rejecting authority?
I wonder if such a study could even be done without the co-operation of current elephant historians who may have personal reasons for not participating, but it would be a remarkable effort on the part of someone who had the resources to do such a study.
I recall reading an article in a European circus magazine about a European trainer who had worked the Zerbini herd. His statement was that most American herds are ticking time bombs. Do you think that was accurate at the time? That, of course was quite a few years back, when there actually were American herds on every show. But, it made me wonder whether aggressive elephants were more common in those days when show owned elephants were pretty much just considered property like the tent, trucks and seats - sold back and forth, warehoused in the off season, and handled by anyone who would work for 50 bucks a week.
Lots to think about, and thanks for raising the question.
Anonymous,
You all gotta give us a name, as much as we value all insight/comments, yours is indeed very appreciated.
To answer your first question:
"would you focus only on cows, since bulls may have a natural prepensity for rejecting authority?" Yes we did, and here are my thoughts, I have very rarely ever, almost none existent, ever seen an animal go suddenly bad. There is always an early indication of issues/problems coming if they are not handled/trained properly through their life, of course preparing for eventual musth, but a 4 year old female will sometimes "turn bad" long before a 16 year old male, again emphasizing the importance of "who" did "what." I think that is also the most important basis of something like a power trick even being considered in the study. When you go to look for a high powered show horse, who trained it, tells you what if any problems you will have both physically and mentally, and that is a fact, not something I think. Fast and quick, is physically devastating and hard and powerful is mentally devastating.
"I wonder if such a study could even be done without the co-operation of current elephant historians who may have personal reasons for not participating" I think any person with a true concern for captive trained animals, should be as open minded as the person go goes in search of his ancestors. You better be prepared for the fact that you may trace to Vlad Dracula. It is about the animal, and absolutely nothing but.
"I recall reading an article in a European circus magazine about a European trainer who had worked the Zerbini herd. His statement was that most American herds are ticking time bombs. Do you think that was accurate at the time?" No more accurate then the shit thrown across the water from here, like all the paralyzed trunks come from Europe.
Because there has never been a "standard" of training, what and how, in the circus, bandits on both sides of the ponds, have been historically revered as hero's, if they will take time to sign an autograph.
Wade
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