Thursday, February 26, 2009
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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4 comments:
Mr. Kroener died in 1942 and Jose Tomas, Toto's keeper would care for both animals. Gargantua's cage was pretty barren and small by today's standards but cage size isn't everything. Another Gertrude Lintz gorilla, Massa, was sold to the Philadelphia Zoo. The old Primate House where he spent much of his life had small cages too. Massa lived to be 54 years old. Another gorilla in Philadelphia, Bamboo, lived to be 37 in a time when Gargantua, Chicago's Bushman, and STL's Phil just got to their early 20's. (This is not a vote for small cages, just some facts.)
Jose Tomas originally worked for Madame Arbeu at her primate colony in Cuba. Can you imagine the stories he could tell about primate care in the early days.
Jim,
I think I can give my opinion to both you and Ben on this thread. I don't think longevity of individuals really proves much, unless we have a base number to compare to. Folks live a long time in prison situations, but they have changed some of the things that were done in the prison systems, that addressed "mental" stimulation. Not only are they living longer, they have eliminated a lot "behaviors" that were brought on by that captivity. There is a village of people, in the Ukraine who live a hard life, smoke cigars, and drink vodka daily, and live into their late 90's early 100's. That's not a vote or cigars and vodka, either just some facts. Compared to the number of people on the earth, they are the exception and not the rule. And Ben, if we are going to address the exception at an old age, we have to also address the ones who didn't achieve it, before it is touted as a plus. And look at reliable autopsy reports for any early deaths.
Jose Tomas would have the tales, for sure. I have often thought the greatest person to be able to spend some time time would be Carl Hagenbeck, and countless others Crandall. He, with his revolutionary moat system, would probably be speechless, at seeing something like the Bronx's Congo.
Wade
Wade, I don't think that longevity per se is metric of "success." What it's pretty good at in looking at the "good old days" is indicating how very little we knew about the requirements of certain animals. These days I very skeptical of using longevity for example in judging the success of elephant programs. Increased success in reproduction is evident. But a high mortality rate in young captive born animals brings down over all longevities. I have no doubt that young animals will live longer in the future and longevities will rise.
Back to the White Sharks. Monterey has displayed three in the last four years -- each one released upon out growing the tank (after several months.) Before the first white shark went on display, longevity in captive whites was measured in DAYS. Clearly management protocols have improved -- but arguably have yet to reach a point where anybody can pretend that they could keep a white shark for it's "natural lifespan."
Ben,
That was the point. Longevity is a real reach in indicating a good husbandry protocol. But it is always referenced, when there is not much else. Like the baby elephant birth/deaths, and you have to admit there have been few in 100 years, we need to also then look at the number of anything, lets say gorilla's and elephants, that were captured put into a captive situation, and if we come up with one longevity record out of 50 let's say, that sure isn't a shining endorsement at all that things don't need to change.
Wade
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