Heman, Taronga's bull in his new digs at Dubbo. Being involved in the moving of a younger bull who was not experienced at being transported, I can only guess at the nightmare of moving a more mature male. He appears to have lost quite a bit of weight in these photos, compared to the photos at Taronga. The female is named Burma and is from the Bullens Circus. What's her story, Steve.
I suggest if Derby's place had a facility as large as this the Nic/Gyp issues might not have escalated to the point of permanent seperation,
Friday, January 23, 2009
Western Plains Zoo--Dubbo, Australia
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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36 comments:
How big is this enclosure?
How big is this enclosure?
Now we have a legitimate comment, not from Anonymous.
A2,
I assumed the first comment was from you, and maybe you are used to doing things anonymously, but I am too busy to assume. Ryan, not knowing the arrangement was justifiably put off by an anonymous as he and any prideful person has a right to be. Don't get miffed at him, instead say, thank you Wade.
You did "sign" the recent comment, but rather then posting it, you tell me, how big acre wise is the facility that Nic and Gypsy were housed in, and I'll tell you if it is close to Dubbo's. Okay.
Wade
Wasn't sure who that was addressed to, so I found out:
According to their website, Nic and Gyp's new barn was 8000 sq. feet with a 20 acre yard. No details for separation of either.
I don't now how big this enclosure is, but Heman unfortunately died on the 28th of december 2006
Bjorn
Bjorn,
I was aware of his death, and was wondering at his condition in these photos. How soon after moving to Dubbo, did he die. Thank you
Wade
I do say thank you Wade, for (sometimes) allowing me to comment. And thank you Ryan for beating me to the punch on the Nic and Gypsy info. 20 acres is my understanding, as well. How does that compare with Dubbo? I tried to get that information online but all I got was the total zoo land, which is 300 hectares - which, thanks to the miracles of the internet - translates to something just under 750 acres.
Wade,
About thirteen months after moving.
A2,
The only way we will ever understand is to have two differing points of view, based on facts, with private agenda put aside, and only the well being of the animal considered. If you enlarge the photo's it will give a clearer indication of the enclosure, with the barn in the distance. It also appears in the top photo that the bull is in a separate pen, if you look at the tree behind him, and then look at the other photos with the cow. There also seems to be a gate into the area in front of the "viewing" stand, that has an animal in it, but I am thinking it is also another shift area if needed. With Nic and Gyp, who were caught in the middle of some real crap, from both sides, as were the other elephants, there was a delay in them leaving as things were not set for them, and eventually something "temporary" was arranged so that they could leave, with a final construction to be completed at a later date.
Wade
P.S. Ryan, did you know that two people from a major zoo came with the Elephant Sanctuary and USDA to aid with the initial confiscation of Delhi?
Wade,
I know of one, though I will not name names here publicly.
Also, Minnie has died at PAWS
http://www.pawsweb.org/news_and_alerts_1-22-09.html/
Ryan,
Why not name him? You have named names in the past. Would you climb on him, as you climb on Carol Buckley? Are they not the same thing?
Wade
Whoa, Wade. I'm not climbing on anyone here lol. My disagreement with the Elephant Sanctuary is the "we are the only ones who should have them, no one else knows what they are doing, we are perfect everyone look at us." It is a good concept that has become bastardized.
The Belfast Zoo, like others, are taking the stance of a retirement home for older elephants, rather than attempting a breeding program. For breeding programs, adults experienced and exposed to births would be a good addition, but for those that would not contribute this is a nice alternative. They are giving the elephants a home, not grabbing up all they can and claiming they are the only ones who should have them.
Wade, I may not be understanding you, but if you really think that the size of the enclosure had to do with the recent blow-up between Nic and Gypsy, then you must know that the Dubbo exhibit is bigger. Or is it that Dubbo has an area where they can move the bull? They must have that at PAWS, too, or they would not have been able to separate them - does that make sense? I do agree that size has a lot to do with elephants getting along - there has to be someplace for them to go, to get away if they are being bothered. That's why seeing elephants chained on a line has always bothered me.
I always thought that the reason Nic and Gypsy were left in Illinois for so long was that no one would take them - there was some publicity to that effect for quite some time, and some people were quite active in trying to get the AZA to take some interest. The TB issue, I was always told, made zoo people reluctant to get involved. I thought that PAWS agreed to take them fairly soon before they actually left. Was I misinformed?
I think that what the Belfast Zoo is doing is to be applauded. Most zoos, unfortunately, are fairly limited as to space and resources and therefore you won't see them clamoring to take in elephants that are too old or injured to perform and need a quieter situation. I agree that they might make a nice addition to a younger group, but the zoos these days are very focused on breeding and don't have the resources to give over to rescue. And by the way, both Pat and Carol have been trying to push people away from trying to get all elephants out of zoos - they are far from trying to "grab all the elephants they can" or claiming they are the only ones that should have them. They do think their ways are the best ways, but don't we all?
A2
A2,
I won't go into it any further, then to say you are as naive against as Logan is naive for, if you believe what is said. I will debate Carol Buckleys place, but I won't even discuss Pat Derby's they are that different and far apart. Tippi Hendren was interested, by also didn't have the facility for a male. Nic was not of much interest to zoo's because his genes are very will represented. TB, that's the ace they play, but you claim they don't. They took Nic and Gyp because it was suggested take them now, or forever hold your piece. They were moved to a hasty constructed facility and a new one was soon in the works. Hard to know on a site that runs news once a year or so. Do you know of any photos that show the Nic and Gyp facility? Just photos,I won't get dirty with Derby talk. We have good in bad in the circus, and there is good and bad in the zoo's. The sanctuary's have the same mix.
Wade
Addendum to A2,
All due respect, I get real hot at the mention of Derby, but I wanted to add there is nothing wrong with chains on an elephant. No more then a rope on a horse or a leash on a dog. As long as they are off those chains, leashes, rope periodically. A large space will not be used unless motivated to be used. It is safer in the case of elephants a fighting though. An elephant in a small concrete room, to go out to a small concrete paddock of old, yes that is no good. And Belfast has made the decision based on that, which is commendable.
Wade
How in the world is Nic well represented? He has one half-brother who is castrated. That's it.
No zoos are arguing for elephants that are able to perform - it's for breeding. Hence the reason elephants are such a commodity. I know of many that are dying to get a bull or a cow or two. As for rescue, if the female has been around births or juveniles they are a benefit to the group, to offer their experience to the first time mothers.
As for chains, isn't it funny to go to Disney World and see kids with harnesses on leashes to keep them from getting in trouble? Yet we are criticized for keeping our elephants (and the public) safe.
Ryan,
That's what I said, but it was through his father that they were objecting to. A number turned him down, TB also being a consideration. What about the fellow who thinks what he and sanctuary do is all right but not others? Should he be allowed to operate or be validated as an authority. Or should everybody keep an eye on him?
Wade
Through his father? Tunga was wild born. I really don't get what they are talking about.
Who are we talking about, this fellow?
Ryan,
How many Tunga offspring are there that have sired offspring? Yes the zoo guy's that aid in the confiscation. I was under the assumption that zoo and circus were in the same boat and were working together and it was us against the Buckley's?
Wade
Wade, I was under the impression there were none- Sabu is castrated, Amy had a stillbirth, and then Nick. Am I wrong?
Ryan,
I was told there were others. I am not keeping records for elephants.They are still questioning whether Packy was captive born or not.
Wade
What about the zoo guy?
Wade, the only photos I know of Nic and Gypsy's new facility are the ones on the PAWS website. I'm not sure if you mean that you won't go onto the site to look, or just that you don't want to talk about PAWS.
WIth reference to my believing what is said: I rarely do. I communicated with a lot of people about Nic and Gypsy, people with different views - not just the sanctuary people. I believe it was actually someone from the USDA who told me that the zoos weren't interested in Nic because they were afraid of the TB issue. It made sense to me, and explained the otherwise mysterious notion that the AZA would turn its back on a breeding-age bull. Your explanation about genetics makes sense, too, in theory - but if what Ryan says is correct, then I'm still back to thinking that the TB is the only explanation for no zoo willing to take him.
I didn't, by the way, say that i was against chains - I said I don't like to see elephants chained on a line. As it happens, I don't like chains at all (I don't like leashes on kids, either) and I don't agree that the dog leash is a good comparison. I would have a problem with a dog being tied on a leash for most of the day, too. But my point was that when they are on a line, they can't get away from the elephants next to them, and that's not good for fight prevention. A2
So I go away for four days to educate little snot gobblers about the wonders of the reptile world and you decide to celebrate Australia Day without me. Some mate!!!
The beautiful old elephant temple is NOT part of Wild Asia - it is in a different part of the zoo. It has been converted into a museum. The new elephants [1:4:0]imported from Thailand have a multi million dollar barn and two yards - complete with good quality truck tyres! The barn is great - the two yards combined = 2000 square metres! [Legal area for 2 elephants is 2000 square metres but Taronga is owned by the Government so legalities can be stretched a bit!] Already two of the cows are pregnant - one mated naturally and one by AI.
The zoo then discovered that they really needed a bull barn. So they have built a hideously modern edifice right next to the beautiful old temple. The bull will now be moved to his new home and kept there in isolation [no visual, tactile or olfactory contact with the cows]. The cows will be walked to him when breeding is desired. Just so long as there is someone on the staff at the time who can actually handle them!!
I am assured by people from Taronga that the decision to keep this wonderful group of elephants in such a tiny space at the city zoo [Taronga] and not in much more spacious habitats out in the country zoo [Western Plains] had everything to do with conservation and nothing to do with the greater population of the city delivering more bums on seats - and thus, more dollars.
Burma arrived in Australia for Bullen's Circus in 1961 at a guesstimated age of 5 years. She was 55 inches tall and came from Thailand via Singapore.
Five elephants were imported in this batch, one was recorded as dead on arrival and the remaining four toured Australia and New Zealand for many years with Bullens Circus.
Burma was sent to Taronga Zoo on "loan" after she flogged Mark Bullen on the circus' return from New Zealand in 1982.
The remaining 3 - Sabu, Siam and Bimbo remained with Bullen's Circus until it folded and then spent much time at various Bullen parks and on hire to other circuses. This trio was the best elephant act in this country and I was very pleased to be able to hire it from time to time for my circus. In latter it years it was energetically presented by Craig Bullen and, in my opinion, nobody worked it better.
These 3 have been on lease to Steve Irwin's Australia Zoo for a number of years now with Brenton Bullen in charge of them there. They don't perform there.
Heman was part of a group of young elephants that were trained for a circus performance at Taronga by Alfons Arndt. They did a very nice act but when circus acts started to stink in the zoo world they were sold off one by one - not as an act. Charlie Ridgway from NZ bought one of the cows but the zoo didn't want to get stuck with the bull so they made the deal for the cow conditional on Charlie taking the bull. Charlie paid for both, shipped the cow first and clean forgot to ever come back for his bull.
Heman stayed in isolation at Taronga in a yard adjoining Burma and another cow who later had a vulval prolapse and died. Nobody could do anything with him. He even had to be anaesthatised [not sedated] to get his feet trimmed.
The decision wss made to move the old Asians out to Western Plains at Dubbo [600 kilometres away] to free up space for the pending new arrivals. A mate of mine was involved in crate training them and the move went real well. At Dubbo they had a heap of room [guessing about 4 or 5 acres] with seperate barns for Heman and Burma. I witnessed some of the early attempts at running the two together in the one paddock and they were really touching. No aggro at all.
Eventually Burma's bitchiness took over and she began biting Heman - even taking off part of his tail. They had to be seperated during the day as well as at night. He lost condition big time but that could be due to a combination of a number of factors - his age, stress from Burma, competition for food and infections from the bites that she inflicted on him. The spin machine went into overdrive on his death and nobody asked any hard questions.
Last year Burma was joined by Arna and Gigi from Circus Stardust following Arna's allegedly killing a man.
It was hoped that Burma would accept female company [and did for a little while] but fighting started eventually and so now Burma lives by herself in a yard adjoinig Arna and Gigi.
Steve,
Because I am your mate, and hadn't heard from you in a while I was concerned, so I just decided to bait a hook and go fishing.
Great story!!!!! That Charley Ridgeway sounds like a character.
On the other end of the purchasing animal scale, one day two elderly gentlemen, "life partners" if you will came to the farm I was at and wanted to buy a Black Arabian Stallion, not to ride or use but just to stand in the back yard of their estate, so they could look at him from the balcony. I suggested a gelding might be better for them, instead of a stallion. They asked what the difference was between a gelding and stallion, and I told them no difference except geldings are bigger and more impressive!!!! They agreed that is what they wanted, and I brought in a group of 8 two year olds, one of which was black. They loved him, and I separated him, and sent the others back out to the pasture. As I was making arrangements to deliver him, they asked "why is he running around crying?" I explained, he wasn't crying he was whinnying for the horses that had gone back to pasture, as he had been with them since he was a weanling, but he would get over it in a short time. These two queens standing there with their arms around each other said, "maybe it would be better to buy two horse's so they won't be lonely!!!!" I blinked and said, "that would make him happy, but I have to have 5000.00 for another one. I can't let you have him for less." They had no problem with that, and we chose a chestnut as a friend for their Cass Ole. They paid me to come to their estate twice a week, to assure them the horse's were happy. Running on 15 acres with a loafing shed and stream running through, I assure you they were happy, and I got two junk horses out of the barn, instead of one.
Wade
A2,
All due respect, just because you heard it from a USDA representative doesn't make it gospel. They are not under oath. They also had no problem leaving Nic and Gyp right where they were at, after the "snafu" with the move to Holwein. There was a lot of finger pointing after that deal. One elephant went to Oklahoma, which was major as the state did not want it. It was state intervention that caused all the major roadblock. By then the TB had been made such a major issue, in an effort to discredit, nobody wanted to touch it or was taking a chance.
Do you really think incompatible animals are housed next to each other??? If two tigers fight they are separated. If two horse's fight in stalls next to each other they are separated, as are two dogs, for fight etc. etc. Do you actually think they are forced to stand beside each other and fight to the death???
Wade
I think that, as with every issue, there are handlers that will pay attention to whether animals get along and there are handlers who won't. I also think that there are at least a few groups of, say, 3 elephants traveling together where two of them don't get along and there are sometimes fights. I know that a tiger was killed by others in her cage recently, and that the circus had been warned about their tigers being too close to one another.
And yes, I know that USDA isn't gospel. But, as I said, the information fit with what I knew, it made sense, so I believed it. I'm still not convinced that the TB is not the issue that kept the zoos away from a breeding bull. You yourself acknowledged that it was at least ONE issue. I'm not saying they were right in thinking it was a problem, just that they did think so, and it scared them off.
A2
A2,
Without a standard, which I have been screaming about for 15 years, who's to say who is qualified and who isn't. Again, also like sanctuaries there are good and there are bad.
As for the tiger death, in the world of animals "shit happens" even with the best laid plan. Look at the recent Nic/Gyp issue just as an example. But to stereotype all over an isolated occurrence is wrong. The main issue with the TB, was nobody wanted to be put under that microscope and be required to perform the regular trunk washes and other things that were required. Who want's the grief, and would it be worth the benefits to having Nic. Again it was a knee jerk situation that was greatly exaggerated for PR. I have yet to hear from the doomsdayer's that the end is near because of the herpes issue with you elephants. If they could find a feel good hook there, don't believe for a moment they would not use it, misinformation/exaggerations be damned.
Wade
Here is what I have seen.
Elephants and tigers who are close to equal physically, seldom fight when chained or in close quarters. This, I believe, is due to not being able to escape if things don't go the way they were planned. However, an animal that has had success as a "bully" will often take advantage of a situation like this. This is less a fight and more of an attack (There is a difference). Confinement ie. chains, cages, are a proven way of preventing "attacks" on other animals. If you have three elephants, and one is a "bully" you can turn two of the three loose in a hot pen and throw a back leg on the "bully" then creating a place for the others to get away. I doubt elephants together in an 8000 square foot barn felt they could escape an attack from a loose "bully". I have seen elephants loose on 7 acres take advantage of another getting into a corner.
Casey,
I think animals of close physical equality seldom fight because it is a futile effort, and one of the greatest motivators for fighting is physical dominance. The larger the area, while not eliminating is extreme cases, so offer the safety of distance, and less chance of fighting and severe injury that a smaller confined area does not offer.
Now with a monster Houdini like Gyp, I had to chain her on a long chain in the middle of the pen with 5 other elephants, not letting her get any closer then 4 ft from the fence. It was the only way I could keep her from dismantling the hot fence and turning every body loose. I you put her on the "honor system" and left her loose, within 10 mins. she jammed honor down your throat as she dismantled the enclosure. LOL
Wade
I had one that after figuring out that sticks, rakes, and other objects didn't conduct electricity, found it more effective to knock the smaller elephant through the hot fence. This was a two'fer in that the wire gets knocked down, and she got to whack the other elephant into getting zapped. After resolving this, the smaller elephant took to pushing the groom through the wire not as effective because the zap from the hot wire will sometimes go straight to the grounded elephant from the groom wearing shoes.
Casey,
Gyp used all of those methods, in addition to learning that her, impressive for a female tusks, also didn't conduct electricity. After she became Nic's companion the gate to the chute into the barn was secured with one hot wire which she would "pop" in a minute and let Nic into the chute. I finally devise a double X wire system which she couldn't break as the tusks just slide up and down. It worked great for a week until I decided to reward them with some tree branches to eat and play with, and Gyp thanked me by throwing then on the wire and breaking it. The eventual solution was to take her "pair of swiss army knives"(tusks to a normal elephant) away from her. We were so gun shy of that brilliant old girl, that every time I and my staff thought of a new solution to combat her, we went into town to the restaurant to discuss it, so she couldn't over hear us, and get a jump on working out a solution to it. LOL
Wade
Wade, I'm not stereotyping anything, in fact, the opposite. I said some good /some bad, as with everything. I don't like chaining in a line because of the possibility of fights. You are the one who brought up the need for space to avoid things getting to the fighting point, in the first place! I agree with you. They need to be able to get away so as to diffuse a disagreement before it gets serious. THat won't happen if they are chained side by side. Casey points out that there are ways to avoid that problem - I know that there are. I also know that not every handler will be that careful, but I'm not by any means saying that none of them are!
As to the tiger death - in my view, if they have been warned and cited repeatedly for keeping too many tigers in too little space, and one ends up dead, attacked by the others in that small space, that would not fit my definition of shit happening despite best laid plans. It often does - but I don't see that there were any plans in play, well-laid or not. Just that one instance - no stereotyping! A2
A2,
I realize you weren't stereotyping in this instance, and it is appreciated. It was just a reminder to all not to stereotype. I was referencing wild, untrained, unmanageable animals as needing the space. You have know way of knowing if an animal will fight, and they will often be together for years before it starts. If and when it starts you move them to a different place on the picket line it is a simple as that. If it were not for the chains of course they would walk back and start the fight again. In the case of the tiger, I don't know how many tigers they had in what size space. A couple of years ago I had 14 tigers in 7 cages, USDA size for 2 per cage. I had all the doors open and they were all laying together sleeping in 5 cages. They could have moved any place. An inspector came for inspection and said that is too many tigers in the cages, 14 in an area for 10(5 cages). I pointed out that the doors were open and the could go where ever they wanted, and that there were 7 cages they just chose to sleep together and use 5. He said I needed to make them stay in the other two cages and left!!!!!
Wade
Aggression is aggression is aggression. In the case of either an aggressive tiger or an aggressive elephant space is only a temporary fix in the behavioral sense. We're talking about aggression as a aspect of territoriality, or aggression as a form of dominance within the social structure. Elephants are highly social so an aggressive/dominant animal will always express that behavior whether the enclosure is 50X50 or 500 acres by 500 acres. A territorial male may be happy stake out some portion of a larger space (or a smaller space for that matter) and confine his aggression to the perimeters, but a socially dominant female eventually seek out sub dominants even in the largest space. The only advantage to the larger space is the ability of subdominant animals to elude the aggressor. Basic waterhole behavior. Do sub-dominant elephants move to the other side of the waterhole to avoid getting kncoked around? (After all they have all the room in the world.) No, they get hit, the aggressor asserts dominance and life goes on. In a real sense the artificiality of management in domesticity is that we try to thwart aggression. We argue against nature, as it were. Our motives are justified and well intended, but ultimately the notion that a very large space is the answer to anything isn't true. (Anymore than the silly notion that because an elephant might walk thirty miles to find a waterhole or forage, they need to walk thirty miles.) We successfully manage aggressive animals by removing them from social settings.
While it's easy to suggest that if USDA has told an exhibitor that a group of cats need more space, and then a cat is killed -- something went wrong because of that lack of space -- and in fact that may be true; but we have to allow that even two cats sharing ample space are capable of the kind of fighting that might lead to a mortality. Certainly it's not unknown with litter mates when rough play in juveniles becomes dominance/hieracrchical behavior in slightly older animals. In some of the really good field work on lion prides in Botswana there have been mortalities reported in young adults. Again, likely space and poor management were indeed to blame for the tiger death A2 is referring to -- but it isn't an absolute that space was the only factor.
The official cause of Heman's death is "bacterial infection" - which covers everything from an ingrown toenail to Herpes!
However, he had been under a "standing sedation" procedure quite a number of times for semen collection. The sedative used for this has been proven in other countries to cause some side effects - like photosensitivity of the skin.
Before his death Heman developed skin lesions which he had never had before.
He died in his pool at Western Plains - but he rarely, if ever, went into the water.
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