Don't mock the old fool. In his prime he earned 100,000.00 a day, but some things are impossible to give up. Note the sweat stains on the front of his pants. That's how close you are supposed to bring them in.
Sunday, January 4, 2009
Manuel Díaz "El Cordobes"-- My vote for the best of my generation
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Wade G. Burck
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21 comments:
It's hard to imagine now, but Benitez (Cordobes) was so popular in the 1970's when I was high school, ABC Wide World of Sports would sometimes show a bullfight. Can you imagine the outcry if a network aired that today? And it's not like he was in a class of his own, Francisco Rivera was pretty great as well before his death in the 80's. Cordobes must be 70 now, at least, and probably hasn't been in the ring in ten years, but when my wife was in Spain several years ago at a festival in the north he was a guest and still drew massive crowds for a book signing of photographs. Incredible grace and poise.
Hemingway liked Antonio Ordóñez for the best of all time, and that summer of 1959 with Ordóñez and Luis Miguel Dominguín must have been incredible, but one thing that consistently amazes me is the way that every ten years or so a star comes along who breaths new life into bullfighting with skill and charisma. From Manolete to Jose Tomas. If only circus could do that.
I find no entertainment in this.
"I respect you and would never say anything to the contrary unless that respect was lost some day, due to an animal abuse issue"
Is this not considered abuse Wade? Yet he is the best? Why vote for winners and losers in something that is wrong? Regardless of whether we agree or not it is still legitimizing the practice.
Wade mon Cherie;
Yes yes yes... you are absolutely right he was the best of the best.
And you are doing a fantastic great job with your Blog....
in my opinion ..
and for sure.! many many more personnel, you are number one. especially for bean always so honest,and true love for the Animal kingdom...
and to tell it as it is.....no one else did it.....Bravo.Mon Ami.
sincerely Mireille.
ps.
as for Ryan, your opinion is very small...
Ryan,
For me entertainment is fun. This is not fun. This is as serious as life and death. This is as close to art as anything with animals will ever be. The religious significance(although I am not a religious person, I respect the significance of a religion to some) as well as the standard by which each and every matador is judged, makes it a sport as well as art like ballet. The reason for a bull fight as well as the reason for killing the bull, for me make it even more respected. Study and learn about something Ryan, don't pass judgment, with out understanding it. That's what the animal rights activists do to you and your elephants, remember? How many times have you said, they don't know what they are talking about?
Wade
Ben,
I have been advocating that change for a long time. If you study bullfighting, it has changed greatly from it's origins. Changes brought about by pressure from the changing world. And as you say they manage to pull it out, and make it a success, like the rodeo, the Arabian industry, and others, before they have to readdress the issues facing the industry in a new generation. The only money involved was what is need at the box office. Kept just enough tradition so you know what it is, and give the public what they want.
I hope to address the changes in the next couple of days, but it is quite extensive.
Wade
Wade you really nailed it. The combination of art and religious expression in the bull ring is timeless. I remember the first time I saw a Roman depiction of a bull sacrifice, part of the cult of Mithras that the Legions brought out of Persia and back to Italy and Iberia and it was like a light bulb going off, that the fighting bulls were continuation of thousands of years of something. The bulls weren't victims, they were gods and messengers. And the art of the matador is so different from the skill of a hunter. The hunter is dispassionate, even if he loves what he does. The bullfighter, no matter how brave or seeming aloof can't be dispassionate, his performance is too intertwined with the ritual and everything that leads up to the tercio de muerte.
Mireille Sweetheart,
Whoa, whoa. Ryan's opinion is not small, it is just uninformed. He doesn't understand it as people don't understand animal training.
Man o man. El Cordobes sure makes you hot, doesn't he girl. Maybe that's why they used to call him "the Elvis Presley of the bull ring".
As Ben said, I first saw him in 1968 on Wide World of Sports. I have about 35 videos off of 8mm film of his best fights. He used to to knee in the middle of the ring, with his legs spread and his chest out, with his cape in his right hand and his arms spread. The bull would enter and see him and charge, at the last second still on his knees, he would throw his right arm and cape to the left and veer the bull away by inches. A couple of time he got slammed right in the mouth. But that happens some times. A beautiful, dynamic matador.
Wade
ok ok i give in you are right cordobes and Rivera were the best. In my generation was Manolete and a gypsy matador name Marsial . i was very fortunate to see some of the best every time i go back to the homeland and Ben you could have not said it any better . you seem to know what you are talking about and Wade well you nail it too because you espress the art and religous form and we realy dont know all the spirtual preperation that has to be in the final minutes when a torero goes in the ring . hey wasnt there a americana lady did did her share of fighting in the ring back in the 70s does any when know her name .she must had the passion bug for figthing bulls . as far as Ryan well i do respect his opinion but i am sure he has never gone to a bull fight or understand the passion in the blood that exsist maybe he thinks the run of the bulls is the same . personaly me i dont aprove of the run but a bullfight i understand and seen enough to be a afisionado maybe because its in my blood and being a ballet and opera buff its easy to see the art and passion in bullfighting . CleanRaul ps for Ryan i am willing to treat you next month to a bull fight that will be held in Puerto Vallarta its not as great as the ones in plaza mexico or sevilla but it will do . have to warn you can be addicting once you see the colors and the music and the horses and how the toreos show themselfs with a chest full of pride and respect to the publis that came to see them perform a art not to see them or wishing them to get gore . we all want to see the matador trumph . the excitment to see how close he can bring the bull to himself specialy if there is blood strings in his custom wow then you will understand the feeling of pride when he greets his audiance with the tail or ears in his hands .
Raul,
Before you give the wrong impression in your enthusiasm, let me but the blood into perspective. It is nothing more then a residual of the ritualistic slaughter, as happens when an animal is killed for human consumption. Yes the blood on the matador shows how close he brought the animal to him, but the red cape, the terms for the various movements(veronica, etc etc) they dropping of the muleta, with the left hand, to bring the head down, allowing to matator to go up and over with the estoque to complete the estocada with his crossed arms at the death moment making the sign of a crucifix/cross. The significance to me is that from the moment the animal enters the ring he is studied and judged on conformation, character, and bravery( a pawing bull isn't brave, he is timid/apprehensive). Whether he lives for dies in the next 10 minutes depends on whether he is an animal worthy of being spared, and never fought again instead used as a head sire, or because of his "faults" as have been noted, he is killed/slaughtered/sacrificed, chose the word you want so as only to retain the very best stock. I don't see it any different then taking your "culls" to the meat market in a truck. The bull is tested and judged against a standard. The best carry on the rest go away.
That is why the are killed, and why the great ones are never fought again. The second time in the ring they would figure out the matadors moves, and every movement is designed to test some conformational aspect of the bull.
I went to a fight last year in Purto Vallarda, and you are correct it will give you an idea, but a real poor substitute for the great
corridas.
What kind of a Mexican are you, any way? Marsial was not a gypsy bull fighter. He was a gitano torero.
Wade
Wade, in an attempt to learn more about bullfighting, I went to the wikipedia article Bullfighting. They describe half a dozen styles of bullfighting, with further links to two of them. Under Spanish-style bullfighting, they state:
"Occasionally, if the public or the matador believe that bull has fought bravely, they may petition the president of the plaza to grant the bull an indulto. This is when the bull’s life is spared and allowed to leave the ring alive and return to the ranch where it came from. However, few bulls survive the trip back to the ranch. With no veterinarian services at the plaza, most bulls die either while awaiting transportation or days later after arriving at their original ranch. Death is due to dehydration, infection of the wounds and loss of blood sustained during the fight."
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
Thank you. This will be a great opportunity to illustrate the great advances that can be made in an industry.
Wikipedia is generally accepted by scholars as a great source of general information, often outdated, continuously updated, and easy to find, stimulating further study.
There is no lose of blood of any significance, as there was in the early days, as well as the picador horse are protected much better then in day's of old.
The blood is an illusion in a sense. Facial/surface cuts(shaving, scraping) bleed very heavily. Deep muscle wounds bleed very little but are more debilitating.
The pic is a lance with a diamond-shaped point and a crossbar just a short way in from the point intended to prevent the pic from going into the bull's hide too deeply. The bull's blood coagulates fast, so that it appears to trail ribbons or string down its side from the pic wounds. A pic wound is not intended to be more harmful to the bull than a slight encounter with a rival's horns. The same is used to move them from pasture to pasture on the farm.
The banderillas are also not intended as torture. They are intended to correct "defects," such as a bull's tendency to favor a particular side while running, to get it to charge straight. But the bull will also bleed from the banderillas, which will, when placed properly, hang from the bull's shoulders down his side, stuck just underneath the hide. That is why they "flop" Mary Ann, they are just under the the skin, held by a barb, in the heavy neck muscle and not "stabbed" into the animal as some would like to assume. Similar to the principal of a spur, only unusable on the heel or not astride the animal.
Matadors are most often gored in the femeral artery, right near or in their crotch, causing them to bleed to death or get infections so deep in their tissue it can't be destroyed. The bull's horns are not clean. That is why Dr. Fleming, the discoverer of penicillin, is so revered by bullfighters there is a statue to his honor in Madrid's bullring, Las Ventas.
Infection and loss of blood are almost non existent to animal and man given the modern advances of modern science. Modern transportation which has made the travel from the plaza to the ranch, has also made dehydration obsolete and a thing of the distant past. The owner of the bull with his observation/consultation with the matador has the greatest impact on which bull is spared for breeding. The input from the crowd is normally agreement, as they have taken the time, dedication, to study the structure and character/desired standard of a fighting bull, as have the dog breeders in the seats at Westminster, or the Arabian breeders at Nationals. That is the greatness of this art. No phony paper allowed, the spectators will eat you alive for a bad kill(so very rare, look at the tape of Manolete. You will see a bad kill, when his shoulder dislocates when he hit bone, instead of entering the lungs/heart) or things done wrong.
The fans hung El Cordobes after something happened that he tried to prevent.
Wade
Mary Ann, haven't read the wiki entry you refer to, but Wade is certainly right. A fighting bull that it spared will have suffered very superficial wounds and should survive with no real lasting damage. Also worth noting that bulls are sometimes sent out of the ring and replaced if they break a horn.
Hard as it may be to imagine, there are people who edit Wiki entries to put some things in the worst possible light -- imagine that!
I always tell people who are interested in seeing a bullfight -- without making the trip to Spain, to check out Cuidad Juarez on Easter Sunday, which traditionally opens the season there. Great spectacle. Tough little bulls from Begoña . Tijuana starts their season in May and runs through Oct. Mexicali has fights before Christmas.
Mary Ann, haven't read the wiki entry you refer to, but Wade is certainly right. A fighting bull that it spared will have suffered very superficial wounds and should survive with no real lasting damage. Also worth noting that bulls are sometimes sent out of the ring and replaced if they break a horn.
Hard as it may be to imagine, there are people who edit Wiki entries to put some things in the worst possible light -- imagine that!
I always tell people who are interested in seeing a bullfight -- without making the trip to Spain, to check out Cuidad Juarez on Easter Sunday, which traditionally opens the season there. Great spectacle. Tough little bulls from Begoña . Tijuana starts their season in May and runs through Oct. Mexicali has fights before Christmas.
Ben,
As legendary of an author as Hemingway was, and as full of facts as his writing were,they are dated. His books are often quoted by the anti forces of bull fighting, as the Court, Beatty, etc. books are quoted by the anti forces of circus animals.
Of particular interest to me was his quotes of the purpose of the picador and thi picing of the bull was to weaken/tire it's neck muscle's so that it lowered it's head more, a necessity of making the kill. I think that thought, while not intending to be wrong, is akin to the use of a fork in the arena. We see it, but we don't know for sure why, so we speculate on why or what it's purpose. Users of it may not have a clue, as it has "just been done that way. Recent studies have pointed to the fact, that it does have a purpose, backward peoples of old just never knew why, just what the effect was.
When the picador is working the bull is when the matador studies it. The distance traveled by the bull, the side of the ring it chooses to defend, is it left dominant or right dominant with it's horns, and its bravery/endurance to pain when it attacks the horse are all taken into account. The purpose of the picadors is not really to harm the bull, or to punish it or to bruise it. The purpose is to keep the bull from harming the horse more than the effect of its charge, to keep the bull away from the man on the horse, and as studies in the past 5 years have shown, to puncture a gland just behind the neck muscle that produces a hormone like adrenaline that causes the genetically bred neck muscle to swell to the point where the bull cannot move its head much, making the target easer to hit.
Wade
Wade
I have learned a lot from this post regarding bullfighting. Thank you everyone for your comments, insights, thoughts, etc. I still can't say I enjoy the concept, but I have a better understanding. I did not come into this conversation with an open mind, and that was my first mistake. As Wade has said, the AR have taught us things and pushed many to reform/correct themselves. As you said, Wade, I should not have passed judgement without understanding. Thank you, once again, for teaching me something new and giving me a new outlook.
Clean Raul, thank you for your offer, though it may be difficult for me to leave my self-mutliation (I mean job) for that amount of time. lol
Ryan,
If you put it in context of 10-15 minutes, and the animal is killed, if it is not a good seminal/seed bull and it never happens to it again, as opposed to an animal abused its whole life, and the animals from that day are given to church orphanages to be utilized, it isn't much beyond a slaughter house for the production of meat. They are food Ryan. If God didn't want us to eat cow's he wouldn't have made them out of steak.
A circumcision sounds a worse case scenario to me. LOL
Wade
Amen! Thank you for putting it in that perspective. I was not aware that's how the animals were disposed of.
Circumcision? Ah!
Ryan,
So as not to give you misleading thoughts, as a pro circus radical would do, understand that at on a busy day, which each matador may fight 4 to 7 bulls, not all of the meat is taken to orphanages. They couldn't utilize it all, and some is sold, or used for other purposes. Also if you look at it as something that was originally done at local ranch's, similar to a local fair, where everyone met for a day of festivity and fellowship, as well as a chance to rate and see the new animals. The methods used historically were of course barbaric, but that has changed greatly. No different then a ranch branding here in the West, where the animals are branded, castrated, de horned, vaccinated. etc. etc.
Wade
Ryan,
Did you really think they just killed them to have something to kill, and left the carcasses to rot in the sun? Do they do that at the meat packing plant? It is a way to test the bulls, and chose breeding stock, by a standard they have set. If the bull was not killed, instead fought over and over, I would be the biggest objector of it.
Wade
I had never thought about it, so no I did not think that.
If the animals are being killed though, how is that testing breeding stock?
Ryan,
When you breed guppies, you flush 100 down the toilet, when they are a week old, who don't make the breeding cut and you keep 3. When you breed horses, you castrate 40 that don't make the cut, and sell them or give them away, and keep 5. If you breed cattle you castrate 1000, and sell them to a feed lot where they are fattened up and then slaughtered and keep 10. The ten you keep are the ones that have met the standard of what you are breeding for and should pass those traits onto a new generation.
Wade
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