I have had this in my favorites for quite some time, given the horse footage. Note the women changing the horses direction with the "tone" of her voice. Note the "more demanding" tone along with the aid of the whip. Is it inhumane? If she was mounted, and applied the same "more demanding" tone with her spur along with the aid of the whip, is it humane? Note the horse flinching, jerking it's head, starting, stopping. Sure fired signs of stress, indecision, apprehension. The same things I noted in the pillared piaffe horse. I am the public, convince me that I should accept both of them. Or convince me why I should accept one and not the other? This is very unique footage of one of the best, Crystal Sembach-Krone one of the greatest to practice the art of circus horse training. Note the instant "tone" change in her voice with the aid of the whip, to change the horses direction. That is timing, skill, knowledge. Note her controlling stress, indecision, and apprehension of the horse as she is backing it up, "unstressing" it as quick as possible. It gets no better then that folks. Watch her react/counter react to every action of the horse.
Monday, December 22, 2008
What is stress and what is acceptable stress!!!!
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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Show me a child that hasn't gotten stressed sometime at school and I will show you a child that hasn't put out any initiative to learn.
I find animals can stress when they are confused. Sometimes until they learn what is expected out of them they will stress. IMO you can't remove all stress when in training. Sooner or later they will test you and if you don't know the when to reward and when to discipline your in trouble as a trainer..So can you put a limit on what stress is acceptable and what is not? Stress shouldn't be confused with abuse and I do believe in the public's eyes it often is....They see what they think is a stress and call it abuse when at times it could just be the learning stage the animal is in at that time..Another week later of training and you might not see that horse flinch or jerk. Or another year later he still is flinching and jerking. Is he stressed or anticipating his discipline.
Jody,
If anything is flinching and jerking a year after it's start, it sure isn't anticipating reward/relief. How long stress acceptable, until it is accepted the animal is not suited for what it is doing?
Wade
Why would you think it was the animal wasn't suited? What about a change in trainers?
I didn't say anticipate reward. I said anticipate discipline.
How long would stress be acceptable, that should be known by any good trainer. To give a set time would be as silly as trying to give an exact day/time a mare would foal. Unless of course she is having a c-section...and then of course it depends on the vet.
Amazing how many issues can just run into one another.
Jody,
Isn't it amazing what you can see if you remove the rose colored glasses, and step out of the 42 foot ring, or the round pen, or the arena and look at what the people looking in see? I was suggesting, why does he need to be stressed looking for discipline. Have you seen any of them stress at grain time in anticipation of the reward? How many times have you heard, folks state that so and so is a good trainer because they did it in a fast time frame? Is barrel racing bad because of the individual you may have observed? That is what the public may address each time the reference an incident or a particular show. Are those individual in the public eye as a representative of the industry? Show me a site or statement where any other animal industry, has pointed at the circus as a justification for what they are doing? Something where they have discredited their adversaries, by pointing to the circus? Do you want examples of the reverse? Rodeo, equine world, Dog world, cat world? Why is cock fighting, dog fighting, circus animals a "soft target," and others aren't? Money? Ringling is the largest live Entertainment deal in the world. Hawthorn lost their elephants? Nobody in the dog fighting world has money? Cock fighting?
Wade
Ouch. In listing soft targets I do hope that dog fighting, cockfighting, and circus aren't supposed to share characteristics? You right in that many "soft targets" are sports or entertainments where much of the audience lack the deep pockets of some horse enthusiasts. In which case you could argue that AR is fairly class driven... Admission -- I used to go to a lot of cock fights in Central America. It was a village versus village thing. Who had the toughest roosters. And I confess I never shed a tear over poultry. Similarly when I lived near the border I used to go to bullfights pretty regularly. Brutal and bloody, maybe, but exciting and graceful at the same time. We're not that far removed from a time when animals were sacrificed to our gods. I'm not at all sure that the vast majority of people are bothered by much that they see at the rodeo, or at a horse show, or in a circus ring. And ironically when they are it's often something that they think they see which may be innocent.
Several years ago the USDA decided to take on the gaited horse business, swooping down on shows and writing up non-compliance. It was a big deal. But there was little follow through. One wonders if after making headlines at two or three national shows certain people called certain people and the effort was back-burnered. Likewise during the winter months tehre are show dogs on the road for weeks at a time traveling in carriers that would never meet USDA standards were those dogs working on a circus -- but if you're an APHIS inspectors there probably a memo somewhere that says keep away from AKC events and bust puppy mills. Ultimately those goes right back to philosophy and ideology. If you believe that animals have rights in the sense that human being have rights -- dog shows, horse shows, rodeos, circus, racing -- they all represent degrees of evil. If you take a utilitarian view -- that animals may be used by human beings for a variety of purposes so long as basic welfare standards are met -- blood sports are still questionable, but most uses of animals in entertainment are alright. the dogma of animal liberation sees this as a black and white issue. Nothing is that monochromatic.
Why are you so down on the Circus? For someone that made their living in this biz for 34 years as you claim to have done, why are you so bitter towards the very thing that supported you for so long? The circus took you in and treated you as one of their own..and this is how you repay them?
Somebody point out where I am down on the circus. This sounds like somebody who has walked in on the move, in the middle. Everything can change/improve, pal. "Took me in and treated me as one of their own???" What are "they" that makes them any different then any other occupation/industry in the worl? If nothing else, the world is getting a lesson. They won't have to wonder what it is about. Wow!!!!!
Come back next time you can convince us it is perfect, or offer insight on how you think it can get close to that.
Wade
Ben,
I never said they shared characteristics. I asked why they refer to themselves as "soft targets" and other animal industry don't. I suggest if we went to Monaco, or any number of shows we would find deep pockets. It wouldn't be polite to list them, and I don't think any other industry with animals has that exclusive. And it is good we don't compare to others to justify, or to deny. Again I will ask send me something where another animal industry has used the circus as a justification of how they operate. We twice that many in half a day.
Wade
oooh,I love that "took you in and treated you as one of their own"
It is not just an art form/performing show.It is a secret society!!!a way of life!
Which I love by the way, except for the bad parts.
In the olden days children could be beaten.
We have been enlightened!!
Hitting is not good!
Giving some knucklehead a weapon and having them abuse creatures of any kind is bottom feeder behavior.
It is the 21st century for goodness sakes !!!
Hey Mr. Burck
Quite being so ungrateful. Why would you want things to be better for the animal..... Looks to us like it is good the way it is. Why don't you just get a popcorn and enjoy the spectacle..... I can't answer for them but if I could I think the animals appreciate you. I know I appreciate learning about animal training from a knowledgeable point of view.....
http://www.elephants.com/Ned/ned_diary.htm
USDA Seizes the Moment, Orders Hawthorn to Give Up 16 Elephants ...
Rhonda
Anonymous, not that it needs to be said, but Wade genuinely loves the circus and the place of animals in performance. If he holds us all accountable, that's not all bad.
Wade, agreed, deep pockets in Europe. Which accounts for actual roll-backs in some regulations where EU standards differ from national standards. When I think of circus as a "soft target" it largely applies to smaller shows here in the States. What I find interesting is the lack of headway that AR has had going up against the charro associations. Not always a lot of money there, but the ability to turn out hundreds of people at a board meeting sends a strong message. Ultimately elected officials care about votes.
Wade - stress is part of our daily lives ...... alarm clock rings, get up, run for bus, worry about deadlines, worry about bank balance ...... stress is there all the time and it motivates us.
Controlled properly, it can motivate our animals too.
Unacceptable stress is DIStress.
Steve,
I was referring to the stress that can motivate, ie the stress at feeding time. I don't know if I can justify animal stress to alarm clocks and such, but I also suggest to much stress can wear down mentally and physically. I don't know if the animal comprehends it is motivating him.
Wade
Ben,
It is about the animals and not some "life style" or "way of life" that a human choose.
Interesting about the differing regulations for the EU and National standards. I was noting that is studying them. Historically in the "Golden Age" didn't the circus move on grift and larceny? I still don't get looking at another animal industry and wondering why they don't get whacked. It is something we have not lived in day in and day out. How can we even guess at what it is inside. We get up in arms if others do it to us. Again how did the greatest, biggest, live entertainment with hundreds of years of tradition venue, get shallower pockets then the Charro association. Every body seems to have deeper pockets. Why?
Wade
Too much stress certainly can wear us all down - humans and animals.
That's when it becomes DISTRESS.
Every animal [or human] has different "stress levels" and a truly good trainer like Ms Sembach-Krone can monitor those levels and adjust their approach to the animal accordingly before it becomes distressed.
I don't really think that an animal comprehends that stress is motivating SOME of what it does - any more than many humans do either.
And I don't think it matters whether it knows or not.
PS: You just knew that I'd be motivated to take the bait on this subject, didn't you??? But I'm not stressed about that!!! LOL
Good boy Steve. Sit. Good boy, here's a cookie. LOL What motivates them is your biggest ace in the hole.
Wade
Yep - and what motivates them can be positive or negative, pressure or release.
Another cookie please!!!!!!!
Wade, the Golden Age of every business seems to involve grift. Wall Street appears to make even the most corrupt showman look like a Priest or Pastor these days.
Ben,
I know, I know. Everybody else is worse, and that justifies. There is so much heat about Illinois politics at the moment, Abraham Lincoln seems to have been forgotten.
They are worse this one for me. What industry revers it's bandits, and has yet to publicly denounce/eliminate them? Don't use Costa Nostra/Mafia, that's a given.
Wade
Wade, don't you think that the standard applies to the wider entertainment in general? Individuals noted for bad behavior continue to flourish because the have talent, or box office, or sell music, or simply get the job done under budget? I'm not sure this "free pass" in circus exists. Just because you personally like somebody, or I like somebody, or another guy likes somebody. Just because we don't discuss them by name here for example -- doesn't mean their animal husbandry or training methods go unnoticed and undiscussed. I certainly don't think we should hide anything or sweep anything under the carpet. Then again I don't know that much is gained dissecting the methods of anyone who hasn't worked with animals in a long time, or historical figures. Standards change and every historical figure in every industry looks shameful in the light of the bright modern day. There are people who did bad things ten years ago and still do. There are other people who had one bad moment on tape over a generally humane career and who will always get beat over the head with that moment. A decade ago the then President of the United States had an affair withan intern and took his lumps. He's still involved with politics, still out in public -- but reporters no longer ask him about that intern. On the other hand had you been caught on tape ten years ago screaming at an animal -- somehow that would still be newsworthy now. Again, I'm not suggesting that there aren't people who trained badly a decade ago and still do it today. But there are trainers who don't get the credit they deserve for doing things right too. I don't know that much is gained by wide spread public mea culpas as opposed to steady improvement within. I tend to think that there is a place for public airing of "dirty laundry," but only when you know that in doing so you can successfully force a specific and immediate change.
Ben,
What law did Bill Clinton break? Yes, he is still in politics, but he will always have an Astrix's by his name, and lost validity/credibility. As will Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa, who did break the law. Tom Cruise will have that same Astrix's because he jumped on a couch. Oh that's right it was on the Oprah show, and she has just become invalidated.
As Dick Flint, and any historian if addressing the past, does not help us understand "what happened and why." Just as discussing the changes, illustrates the advancement. To rest on that, and not discuss how it could be better, is doing the complete history an injustice also, least history repeat it's self. It has nothing to do with liking for disliking somebody. It has to do with an industry as a whole. Bill Clinton has a lot of friends, but that Astrix will be pointed to forever. That's Political History,Ben. I don't think it is revered. It is questioned as an example of "nothing is perfect," which doesn't mean it it shouldn't be. But, now it is not swept under the carpet. It is "History" of that industry.
Wade
I believe Mr Clinton was formally accused of perjury.
Ben,
After the fact. I was referencing the incident/crime that lead to the perjury conviction.
Wade
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