Last week I expressed an opinion(I was told one time, everybody can have one) about "trained/performing Giraffe in the Circus and whether they were appropriate any more, and that they didn't do much but eat once they were in the ring. One of the few women who have ever worked with one took offense to my opinion and suggested I was wrong as I had never worked with one. I asked for anything showing a Giraffe doing anything other then eating in the ring. Thank you Sven for these pictures, and I stand corrected. They can also be led with a real long red rope. But I think because of the language barrier, you misunderstood what I meant by "doing something other then eating in the ring. In measuring a Giraffe is 19 ft. to the point of the shoulder or to the top of the head? Oh wait a minute, that's a horse isn't it, and we learned they are nothing like a horse. Keeping that in mind, for my furthering education does anybody know if it take more skill to hand feed them or to feed them out of a bucket?
Courtesy of Sven
Thursday, December 18, 2008
I stand corrected
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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36 comments:
WADE! giraffes are just cool looking and fun to look at.
You think those superstars have something worth looking at.
REBECCA
Wade,
I was told by Tim Rivers that his giraffe is broke to ride. He also has done commercials with him but I don't know what else he does. I do know I would of taken him home(the giraffe-we know how Wade's mind works) in a heartbeat if I could have....
Maybe one of the River's gang could send a picture.
Wade,
I know it must be very difficult for a great animal trainer such as yourself to just watch an animal graze and it is in show business.
However it is ok to just look fabulous and strut around and be appreciated so what's the dif??
Rebecca
Rebecca,
They are even cooler looking and more fun to look at, in addition to being educational, in a herd, in a large tree/grass filled exhibit, with babies nearby. Granted it's not Africa, but it's not bad.
Wade
Jody,
I was looking for more then eating and riding. All of them eat, and 3/4 of them ride, the other 1/4 are too young. If we want eating and riding we have hippo's, rhino's, buffalo, ostrich, etc. so we have justified our "Educational mission statement" for having them in a horse paddock, although they are not horses.
Wade
Rebecca,
It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with "quality of life" for the animal, along the lines of "educating the public". Wanting to strut and having no option are two different deals.
Wade
So what are you wanting?
A giraffe that does piaffe, passage,
spanish walk, and bows?
Has anybody ever tried to teach one to do anything besides eating, leading and riding?
Are you blaming the giraffe for not having the ability or a human that isn't smart enough to figure out how to get something else out of it?
Would you have ever figured a camel would have worked as well as that one a few weeks ago?
I absolutely agree.
What I do not comprehend is: how is the elephants' situation any different? WHy is it OK
for them to not be "in a herd, in a large tree/grass filled exhibit, with babies nearby"? Is their quality of life less important because they CAN be taught to do tricks? Or do you think their quality of life isn't compromised by the circus life, even though their natural needs would seem to be the same as a giraffe's.
Jody,
Exactly. It physically can't do anything. It is a herd animal, with rare, rare, rare exception kept singly. One of the missions of all circus statements is Education, the breeding of animals for future generations to enjoy, and the physical well being of the animals. It hasn't anything to do with who is or isn't capable of training it. Does it meet any of the criteria of a circus's mission statement? Did you think I was impressed with the camel? Impressive is a liberty act with 6, or 4 and 4 zebras, beautiful is a horse passageing.
Wade
This is one of the strangest conversations I have come across on this entertaining and educational blog. I, too, think giraffes are fascinating animals I applied for a grant while in college to go to Africa to study them - unfortunately turned down. From what I remember from long ago, they are quite fragile and I have some reservations about how you would transport one safely for circus "work" even if they could do something amazing. Liberty giraffes? High school giraffes? I don't think so. Although I ended up as an acrobat and aerialist, I spent my time with elephants, horses, camels, llamas, and even a few cats. My experience was that the real animal trainers/owners/presenters (Buckles, Wade, Gunther, Johnny, Trevor, Kaye, to name a few) really did respect the nature of the animals and cared for them appropriately. I think I'll keep my observation of giraffes to proper zoological parks and still respect the skill exhibited in animal presentations in the circus to those animals that can be transported, housed, and cared for properly in a mobile environment. Even Ringling and Gunther were not successful with Dickie, if I recall. All he did was walk on a "long red rope" and eat.
Warren - B.Sc - zoology; M.Sc. molecular genetics.
Wade,
Next I bet you will tell me elephants can't rebound...LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK27aknWVI4&feature=channel_page
So, maybe Bears aren't as athletic as elephants...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa1pIO4_lUY&feature=related
Warren,
If you think this conversation is strange you need to go back and read some of the past.......LOL
Giraffes can do a lot more then just walk around and look impressive. In Europe Kine, Krone, Gerd Simmonait-Barum and Mary Chipperfield all had giraffes that were active art of exotic acts. I myself trained several giraffes that performed, among other tricks, basic haute ecole tricks such as the slow piaffe, and Spanish trot.
Fredy Knie jun. was to my knowledge the first trainer ever to ride a giraffe and perfoming tricks with it at the same time.
In my opinion giraffes are every bit as smart as a horse. The problem is not the animal but the trainers ability to adjust to animals varying behavioral patterns and characters. Giraffes require an extraordinary amount of patience and a trusting relationship, as they are by nature very nervous and jumpy.
The reason most trainers reward the giraffe with a “food bucket” rather then treats offered by hand is to find in the fact that giraffes have long tongs and tend to wrap it around food, the tong is also quite sticky. Offering food in a bucket keeps the trainers hands clean and free of tripping saliva.
Othmar Vohringer
Jody,
What does any of it have to do with the mission statement of education?
Wade
Othmar,
Hello. What are basic haute ecole tricks? Don't a lot of them do slow piaffe's when they pace/weave in a small enclosure's? The original point was they only eat. I didn't mention ride, because I think that is less of a behavior then ride. Remember what everybody says, "we only teach them behaviors that they would do in the wild?" That's why I didn't consider riding on as training. Every body has surly pointed out that they do more then eat and ride. What about the educational aspect?
Wade
Wade - who has an "educational mission statement".
Fragile?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7HCIGFdBt8
This one should be cutting cattle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiU35JJx1Ls
Looks like they've found a use for giraffes (check out the horse cutout at the beginning)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75w4XstmwQ
Giraffe Capture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZienQ19nz7g
Vanishing Giraffe Neck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UizHAEDT_yg
Wade,
I like Othmar..Can we keep him?
Othmar,
Thank you. Tell us more...
Steve,
I thought everybody was according to interviews I have read in the last 10 years and mission statements on show sites? That's what those signs are that say Lion-Africa Tiger-India at the state fairs.
I knew someone who made a big board up with a letter from there Vet and a letter from Ted Friend expressing how the individual was the ducks nuts(I borrowed that. But you owed me LOL) and pictures of their tigers, plus had name plates with the tigers names made to hang on the cages. For three years that was how they responded to "Educating, until they left the state of California. Aren't they educating? Or am I missing something here?
Wade
Jody,
The statement was "they didn't do much but eat(stand on pedestal, ride/sit on, same principal) once they were in the ring." Did you find something to contradict that, or did you forget what you were looking for. LOL
Wade
Wade,
I must be missing the boat...
Seems to me, left upon their own decisions.......horses,elephants,giraffes,rhinos,
gators,etc. would do nothing but eat,sleep,drink, and breed.
Actually, seems like quite a few of the human population follows that way of living....So tell me, what have we learned? If our "mission" is to "educate", then it seems as the humans have followed in the animals steps very well..
My interest in the giraffes was to know if anyone had actually taken the time and had the ability to train one. I know Gunther had one, and I would never judge his ability on the fact that his didn't do much. Nor would I ever believe that because Gunther's didn't do much that they couldn't be trained.. Maybe, just maybe, if he had the opportunity to devote ALL his time to that giraffe it just might have done something more.. We often jump to conclusions without being aware of the total picture.
Glad that Othmar spoke up. I did believe they were trainable to do something other than eat,sleep,drink, and multiply.
Of course, I'd love to see pictures of a giraffe doing a spanish walk. That would just be too cool....
Jody,
I am going to borrow a quote from Warren: "This is one of the strangest conversations I have come across on this entertaining and educational blog"
Rest assured, if what you saw Gunther do with an animal, that is about it's capability.
I didn't know it was a matter of speaking up. In that case, I trained one to corbette and capriole, I could only ride the capriole because the saddle slide off on the corbette. I was going to add a breast collar, but then I started him extending his tongue and touching his eye, and never got around to it.
Wade
Wade,
You shouldn't have quit. Sounds like it would have drawn a good crowd. I'm impressed.....
Jody or Othmar,
I think Anonymous is hot, because nobody answered his question. Would either of you like to respond?
I absolutely agree.
What I do not comprehend is: how is the elephants' situation any different? WHy is it OK
for them to not be "in a herd, in a large tree/grass filled exhibit, with babies nearby"? Is their quality of life less important because they CAN be taught to do tricks? Or do you think their quality of life isn't compromised by the circus life, even though their natural needs would seem to be the same as a giraffe's.
Rebecca.
Why don't you answer anonymous? The question seems to be valid.
Wade
Wade,
If I said elephants were more intelligent than giraffes,elephants are more social than giraffes,elephants are not delicate creatures and can prosper in the correct situation and thrive.Is that an acceptable answer.
Rebecca
Rebecca,
No. Because all of your answers were based on what facts?
Wade
Wade,
I knew I should not do this!
The stuff I heard at some bar?
STUFF I HEARD AT SHOWFOLKS?
ummm PBS
I just know ok?
In case I am really wrong what is the correct answer?
thank you for your time
Rebecca
Rebecca,
You got me. There are only two places, the Smithsonian and Showfolks where you could have gotten factual, researched conclusive animal facts. LOL
When was the last time you saw a "feel good, born free, run Bambi run" documentary on giraffe. They are not the warm and fuzzy animal O the moment, elephants are.
elephants were more intelligent than giraffes, "what is intelligence?" elephants are more social than giraffes, "they both live in herds, what's more social?" elephants are not delicate creatures and can prosper in the correct situation and thrive "all animals are delicate if taken out of their proper situation, which is why the correct situation has to be as exacting as possible if they are to thrive."
You have the clues, the answers are normally more profound, if you find them yourself.
Wade
Wade,
We ,humans , have not figured out how to communicate with giraffes.
We believe they communicate infrasonically with moans and grunts too low for humans to hear.
Giraffes communicate many emotions with their eyes.Including prolonged stares to warn predators to stay away from their young.
On the other hand we humans have been working(work and entertainment) with elephants and we can communicate with them.
Elephants are touchy feely which we humans seem to understand. Giraffes are not touchy feely except with their young to show affection,show how to find food and avoid danger.
In conclusion we don't know how to communicate with giraffes and we can communicate with elephants.SO it is perhaps a little ridiculous and selfish that we brilliant evolved humans and amazing animal trainers can only lead giraffes around with a rope.
Rebecca
Rebecca,
It was a good effort, but you are still trying to justify elephants, by disqualifying giraffe. You are a biased researcher, who did not consider the physical structure of a giraffe. Falcons can fly, can pigs? Do you not understand pig and have not learned to communicate with them if you can't teach them to fly.
If all of your findings about giraffe, could be applied to elephants, what is then your suggestion? To be "open" in your research you can't be "with and for anything" except the result/finding.
Wade
Jody,
Don't you be bringing any of that anonymous stuff to the table.
Wade
Wade,
BECAUSE WE ALREADY HAVE BEEN PLAYING WITH ELEPHANTS FOR A LONG TIME!!you know logging elephants etc etc.We have them we use them we are attached to them .
We have developed some kind of relationship with them, giraffe interaction is sort of primitive.caveman like.
COuld you improve the quality of my life and tell me the answer because Fresia is on vacation and we have to go the beach and play volleyball and we have to put on sunblock and look for seashells.
So I have to stop my research for 10 hours
thank you,
Rebecca
Rebecca,
Because we had a use for them, and utilized them, did we care for them properly, or did we care for them to meet the needs of which we were utilizing them? Are Giraffe more nervous because we had no use for them, and they have not been bred for 100's/1000's of years for their behavior, which is useful for domestication? We had no use for tigers or lions, dogs served that purpose. Is that why they are not domesticated? Are African elephants more nervous/skittish because they did not have the physical abilities of an Asian, which were used by man, thus were not bred extensively for their domestic behavior. People will still relate a horses behavior to being a "prey" animal which flees from danger. When was the last time a horse was a prey animal if it has been protected from that situation for 3000 years? How long does an animal retain it's wild, hard wired instincts after 1000's of years of selective breeding.
Their is now a study going on at various zoos to understand how an elephant who doesn't sweat or pant cools itself, or retains body heat for comfort in the cold. The best our industry can hope for is to try to make the results work in a transient situation. Let's not disqualify every thing that doesn't appear to be "with it and for it". Let's be open minded, as I assume "it is about the animals."
Wade
Wade,
I don't know what you mean about "anonymous stuff". If there's something I send that you don't like don't post it.. Simple as that.
Jody,
Don't take offense, my comment wasn't intended to offend. It was in jest. The pet butler post which I just ran, I assumed was from you, as you had sent me the same thing last night. I didn't take offense to the post, assuming it was from you, tongue in cheek, said not anonymous posts. Big Al has now fessed up.
Accept my apology for the wrong assumption.
Wade
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