I really don't know what this is or what is going on, but it looks brutal to me. Please, please explain.
Courtesy of Mike Naughton
Monday, December 22, 2008
Calling Madame Col. Olds Rossi, Col. John Herriott!!! Can somebody explain what is going on here!!!!!
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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Mexican horse training in the pillars. This is an example of training for a competition the Charros have for Piaffe on a couple pieces of plywood board of certain dimensions. In it's final stage the horse is ridden onto the board and Piaffes for three minutes, band playing loudly in the background. They can go into a circular Piaffe or just Piaffe, the horses feet cannot come off the board. The ones I saw and judged were desperate and full of sweat by the time the three minutes were up. Three minutes of Piaffe is a sad state of affairs and not necessary and in my view on the verge of cruelty. You can see the stress in the horse in the video and although the tempo is not too bad by the time they ride them the training recieved in the pillars is destroyed by big sharp spurs and rider tempo error. It is sad and I avoid watching it whenever I can.
That right. No animal should have to listen to a Mexican ranchero tune that bad. DION
I am not one of the Col.s but from the music in the background, I'm guessing this is one of those singing cowboy horses from Latin America. Sometime ago I watched one of these guys do a concert in an indoor horse arena. I only watched it because I saw a horse while changing channels. The guy rode the horse while singing and the horse did a really fast sloppy piaffe... ON EVERY SONG for the entire song. I watched out of curiosity to see if he would change horses but he never did. A few weeks later, passing the same channel late at night, there he was again. This time on a news type program that was spotlighting the training of his horses. Now it was all in Spanish and I am not that fluent but they were at his ranch and they kept showing the trainer (different guy) on a horse doing the fastest "piaffe" I have ever seen. Pretty shabby stuff.
Dianne,
Thank you. The stress and discomfort is very obvious. Hopefully, if enough are aware of what this is they will not be so impressed with the video of Ballidor, the grey Andalusian with the long mane.
I wonder how many examples there are in the animal world where an uniformed individual says, Boy did you see that!!!! That's the greatest thing, having no idea of how it is trained, and the end result. At least Dianne and I instantly recognized the stress and discomfort. How many other folks did? How many were going "wow, amazing?"
Wade
Wish I had his tail when I was playing that fly swat on the other link.
Joey,
How many books on the subject of zoo's have been written by participants, or by people like myself who think they are really neat, the zoo fan? How many books on the circus have been written by participants, or by people like yourself who think it is really neat? How many people would look at this, and not care because it was a horse doing a trick?
Wade
Wade,
Once again it's about education. Who says they wouldn't care if they knew exactly what it was all about.
Anyone see 60 minutes last night about the elephant orphanage?
How much of that was done for the public to feel sorry and donate or was the entire story true?
If it is true that is where we could use some celebrity speakers. Maybe making people aware that the elephants here are better off than over there being poached. It would be a start anyway..
Jody,
I flipped channels because I knew what it was, fact and a plea for help. People have to want to be educated. Look at responses here and elsewhere to animal subjects. Who has rose colored glasses on, and who has an open mind?
60 minutes featuring you and your plight is about the biggest "celebrity" help/endorsement you can ask for.
Why in the world would you assume an animal is better off in a less then adequate captive environment?
In an effort to make folks realize there are a lot more animals then "elephants" the current "flavor of the day," let me ask you this. Ringling built a beast wagon in 1992 in addition to the dozens of cages they haul. Great effort at an improved captive life, with the addition of a large exercise cage. They then needed a tent in which to keep said beast wagon out of the weather. Why? Can any European circus readers, send me pictures of the beast wagons in a heated tent during festival time? Are Ringling's animals leading a good life, and the European animals a bad life? What of the animals that are there now, but will leave one day. Will they be provided with the same situation when they leave? Who leads the good life Jody? What if you can't afford all that Ringling provides as the "standard" of feline husbandry? Do the animals who don't have that have a adequate captive life?
I will await those pictures of felines in beast wagons in the winter time, in a heated tent such as Ringling provides? I don't want to assume felines in America are different then others. Again Jody, what is a proper captive environment, to justify life or death?
Wade
Wade,
Your question to me, I think lots of people see this and think how cool it is. The lady reporter was practically swooning over what the horse was doing. I, on the other hand, was cussin' a blue streak. Cyndi kept saying "why don't you just turn it off", but it was like the proverbial train wreck, it disgust you to watch but you can't turn away. There are quite a few videos of this stuff on youtube, I wish I had caught that singing cowboy's name through my tyraid.
Joey,
If I am a fan of the "art" of "exhibition Charro" for lack of a better term, how do I get you to see that you are wrong, and I am right in saying it is the most wonderful thing in the world? How much validity in every part of that world would it take to convince you otherwise? Would you ask the public, or another fan/participant of the "exhibition Charro world." What would it take to convince you?
Wade
Wade,
I understand what your trying to say but we will never be able to keep all animals in the exact same conditions.
Look how some people have a pasture made with pipe fence. Others have board fence. Some have wire or non-climb wire. And unfortunately there are still some that have barbed wire. Don't you think, if the people with barbed wire fence could afford it they would buy something else? Why isn't PETA hitting on all people with barbed wire fence? Next question, should those people not own animals until they can afford other fencing? Many people still think there is nothing wrong with barbed wire fence.
Another example...Another practice I've seen is Round Rolls of Hay left in a horse pasture verses feeding flakes of hay a two/three times a day. I have my preference but I also see the others that use the round rolls don't seem to have any problems here..Which is right? Are they both right? Should the person that leaves round rolls in the pasture because they can't get to the pasture twice/three times a day not own horses?
Should other circus's shut down because they can't keep their animals like Ringling?
I do have some horses/ponies that were on Ringling. I do not keep them in stalls or body clip or blanket them. Should I not have these horses?
Back to the Mexican horse training. Is that horse any worse off than watching some of the barrel racers around here whipping, spurring, and yanking their mouths to get around the barrels? And yet don't even think about banning barrel racing in Texas...........
So where does one draw the line?
Easy to say if they are starving or cripple where they can't walk.. IMO I don't think we will ever have all the answers.
Jody,
I asked you for your opinion to this:
"Maybe making people aware that the elephants here are better off than over there being poached. It would be a start anyway"
What is better off? Is the charro justified because the barrel racers are worse. Would Martha Josey have a different opinion.
Barb wire, pipe, chain link, tied to a truck or a rail waiting for the next rider? What suggests that one is "better off than over there being poached" I have offered my opinions, you have also with questions. I am not ready after 35 years to suggest that a poor captive life is an alternative to death. How much validity and how many facts do we need to convince the public this is a great life?
Wade
Sure it's a great life as long as your not the one caught up in barbed wire.
Jody,
So does the horse piaffing have a better life, if he has a beautiful stall with 3 ft. of shavings, or a custom planted paddock? I have also seen some wonderfully trained barrel racing horses. I possibly take offense to your statement. What would it take to convince you they have a great life better then death? Is a great life three acres on a sanctuary in Tennessee, or is a great life the Cincinnati zoo, or is a great life on the greatest show on earth. Is that opinion based on what is a great life or is it based on friends and a life you enjoyed? Convince the public who have no preconceived notions? How valid must your fact's be? Advertising doesn't count because it has been suggested the fans know better.
Wade
Dianne,
With all due respect, I have seen small roweled spurs such as you wear do some pretty extensive damage. I have seen some dressage irons do the same damage. I have also seen big roweled 17 pointed spurs, barely causes a skin ripple. I have a couple of pairs of Garcia's, that can attest to that, in fact. If I was the individual, I bet I could do more damage with a small rowel if I was so inclined, then I could with a large rowel?
Wade
Wade,
OF COURSE there are some people training good barrel horses as well as reining horses as well as high school horses. I was trying to paint a picture as an example. And yes, it was wrong of me to expect you to know that I wasn't saying that ALL BARREL horses are trained and go the same. I assumed you would have known that I knew better but obviously you didn't.
I don't think though that I can agree with you that some have a better life than death. I have seen some horses in certain trainers hands that I do believe they would have been better off dead. Besides nobody living knows whether we will be better off later than we are now. It's going to be a road trip I will look forward to at that time..
Joey,
What about the book author deal I asked you about? Any thoughts on valid authorship, majority wise with respect to all the efforts. How many researched publications can you get your hands on in regards to quality of life for a zoo feline, compared to researched publications in regards to quality of life for a circus feline? How about wild felines?
Wade
Jody,
Of course, I knew you were not generalizing. That's why I spoke for Martha Josey. I have said individuals from day one, yet you circus fans keep generalizing circus.
"I don't think though that I can agree with you that some have a better life than death. I have seen some horses in certain trainers hands that I do believe they would have been better off dead." What exactly are you saying here? Is the quality of captive care about friendship. Will the public we are attempting to convince accept that, and start buying a ticket?
Wade
Friendship? I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you training or want to be a friend?
And don't start off on you can be both...Respect and Control , without that you have no training..Friendship goes back to the human emotion side........
And, I do not generalize circus's.
No more than I would generalize horse people.
Also, I think to be a "Circus Fan" you must like all aspects of circus. I do not like all aspects so don't call me a FAN....I'm interested in the horses and some of the other animals..Doesn't mean I don't respect the other acts. I'm just not interested in them..Do I believe it would be a loss to the circus to only have one or the other..YES.....But because I respect the Circus Tradition.. Give me a tent over a coliseum any day.
The majority of the public that I believe goes to a circus goes for the entertainment. They have no clue whether a horse has a proper piaffe or doesn't hold a bow. I fought this at AN and Mark Miller was right. Entertain them. Don't worry about left or right leads. It's only for our own sole/ego that we strive for perfection in training and I say that in a positive way........
Jody,
Friendship in regards to a quality of care, if some one/something you like is doing it? Or less quality of care if it is something you are not interested in. I was trying to paint a picture as an example. And yes, it was wrong of me to expect you to know that I wasn't saying "fan" in a negative way, I was referencing something an individual may like or not like personally as possibly clouding how they look at "quality of captive life." I assumed you would have known that I knew better but obviously you didn't.
Mark's thoughts will of course have insight into the running of a permanent equine dinner theater. They are much on the same level as another dinner theater in the Midwest, right now struggling. I wonder if it was moved to a different location like, oh let's say close to a major attraction, and you become a satellite operation, if the lady might be smart in what will work in a circus, because it is struggling right now. Let's hope the falling gas prices turn it around.
Wade
Well that was quite a discussion. I have seen only a few really good Charro's, their horses were immaculate and very well trained. I have a real problem with the length of time they perform very strenuous tricks with no thought for the animal and that Piaffe and Passage are difficult enough on the horse carrying their great weight almost in slow motion. It seem not to make a difference if the song needs it, that what is done. I also find it repugnant that they will sit for hours on these same horses after their performance singing for their pleasure, (which is great I might add) but the horse again has to go through the same routine. I am sure the great bullfighting horses are not treated in this manner and they do have horses they trade off during the fight each a specialized animal. Maybe it's because it's a life and death event and not just one of singing and drinking. I have many very good Mexican friends but we really do not see eye to eye on training/riding horses and that does not mean they have to do it my way, just a humane way. I have seen parties go on until wee hours of the morning and the horses are a great part of this tradition but I have also seen young very green colts Passaged continually around and around the arena until the sweat poured off their sides, heaving with exhaustion. Not all but the majority of these horses will not stand to be mounted they are already in a heightened state of hysteria although they are stalled, groomed, fed and cared for in a grand manner. I do believe though that the Mexicans have preserved the real beauty of the Andalusian, one mostly as beautiful as the next as proved in the slide show posted here. The Spaniards however have introduced a horse called a PRE Andalusian that is (excuse my French) butt ugly and not half as an exciting moving horse. I also have been to the interior of Mexico and seen beautiful displays of training in the Charro style all judged for competition
The spurs, well if they were used only for the decorative that they are that's great but that really is almost never the case. I agree all spurs can do damage so it's not just the Mexican riders that are guilty here and in a few cases I also have been guilty.
A few years back a famous Mexican singer came to L.A. to perform at the Forum Arena. Because of government testing they did not bring over their horses but wanted to rent some for the show. The lady I trained for decided it would be super neat to have her horses ridden by this star so arrangements were made for them to come and try them out. The Charro's filed into the barn carrying their saddles and bridles and we were aghast at what they expected these horses to perform with. The curb chains on the very long shanked bits were not flat chain but bailing wire, the stirrups had bolts stuck out from the inside of the stirrup, the better to bow quickly without argument through pain and of course all wore the huge very sharp spurs. After removing the wire and bolts the bits were allowed but in the end they had a fancy prancing horse that did a lot of tricks none of which they could execute.
There is all sorts of horse riding, all of which we will never agree on but there are those trainer's that have figured out how to get the most out of their horses without the fear factor no matter the discipline. I guarantee no historical horse will ever perform and take that trainer to the heights of say Martha Jose, Carlos Arusza and Dr Klimke. All horses have to be exerting every effort to the extent of their ability and the line is very fine, the good trainers find that line and do not cross over.
Dianne,
Interesting about the "PRE Andalusian." I have not heard of them, and just assumed the beautiful Andalusian of today was due to the Spanish influence. Wrong assumption again. If by Pre Andalusian they mean Przewalski I agree they are butt ugly. I should think that changed with the Arabian influence.
Training/animal husbandry are major issues in my industry. The recent confiscation in a nationwide sensation we are all aware of. It wasn't the first, but will it be the last?
The major Arabian Halter Trainer receiving a 5 year suspension from the board of the association, I assure you shook that industry up. As we strive for a husbandry standard, I can only pray we will continue with a Trainers standard.
I remember one of the first day's I had the pleasure being around your stable, you looked at my whips and said, "I see you tape your whips white?" I said, "I see you tape your whips white, also. I have been told you are supposed to make them black so the people don't see them." You said, "if you use them right, for the purpose they were intended for, the people don't mind." I said, "that's what I found also." You were the first animal trainer I had been around in 15 years that didn't tell me I needed to make the whips black for the purpose of "concealing" them. But honestly, you have to admit the sound of jingle bobs are something special on a fine sterling rowel.
Wade
Obviously the horse does an excellent piaffer and did not need to be held into that for such a long time. It is hard on a horses hocks to do that for such a long time. In fact its certainly abuse.
I saw the real Lippizans perform on one of their ntours from Vienna here in the USA. Each routine they did in my estimation was way too long and hard on the horses. Sure they were in shape, so to speak, but I as a trainer was uncomfortable watching it. The passage, piaf, cantoring went on forever. The audience oohd and aahd at each segment, but for me it was too long. I will say that the horses sure got a work out. Much more than we would do in a circus. Generally any circus act should be 7 or 8 minutes including high school and liberty and in that time frame you can pretty much "do it all". Horses are just like human athletes, performers and dancers and need the same regimen, but some coaches, teachers or trainers push too much. Training should be enjoyable and if the poor animal or person has to suffer in the overall process thats way too much. I like to say in a three or four month training period we start out at four hours each five days of the week and at the end of that time we have narrowed it down to eight minutes.
Johnny,
Thank you. All due respect, If I am understanding the context of "5 hours", I have to disagree. My philosophy, based on what I have discovered, "is to get what you want, which the animal doesn't understand what that is, as quickly and as effortlessly as possible, and quit for the day. Wash him, bathe him, brush him as an additional "reward" for compliance. I have accepted that an animal doesn't want to do anything, except eat and do nothing, and the quicker and gentler they are shown they have no option with a quiting/putting away reward, it is more effective than a food reward,(effective for "come here" and that's about all) and they quickly "accept/learn" the quicker they do what is expected, the quicker they can do what it is that they want to do, which is nothing. They then anticipate doing something because they have found it is pleasurable. I have found that by drilling and drilling, you run into the "stress" issues, of exhaustion, apprehension, confusion, etc. which will cause rebellion, which then needs to be addressed. You don't eliminate the stress issues you push through them into another, and the issues are still there and they will rear their ugly head in the future. How do you teach a dog not to run? Don't let it run in the first place, and it will never know it can.
I hope your health is fine, respectfully,
Wade
Wade,
About a year ago I flagged a video of a guy literally whacking a horse with a short wooden pole to get the horse to "piaffe." The horse was a nervous wreck and acted like a horse that was spooking at an object and trying to shy away--however he just kept swinging the stick. Ugh.
Chris
By five hours means that each horse gets individual training, being checked up, learning carry the bit, trotting in the ring line up, stop. Reverse direction. A subtle introduvtion to the whip and the beginning of learning its name. Simple commands. "good" and "no". "here or Come Here". Then two together. Learning whip and voice exdpression of Waltz, volte. Then a learning process of two or more in the ring and more or less depending on the routines until its all of them itogether, doing the whole thing in about eight minutes. No horse is subjrcted to any long drawn out sessions and its obvious when they become weary. But during the training each time spent should be for a reason and continuing learning.We must always be adding to their repitore, so to speak. All done in a cool manner and no hysterics.
Chris,
It would depend on the context of what you saw. More damage can often be done with a dressage whip then can be done with a stick, depending on where it is used and by whom. It is perceptions of the uniformed. I happen to know where you can buy a superb "piaffe stick" and a great manual detailing it's use. I was dumbfounded the first time it was suggested to me, and equally dumbfounded at it's result. It is a matter of following the great manual to the letter. Twice as effective and humane as a whip. Nothing wrong with a whip. Just the hands holding it, like a stick
Wade
Col. Herriott,
I thought we were discussing saddle horses. If folks understood that those hours(I still disagree on 5, but will give you 1 hr. twice a day for liberty horses) with a liberty act is done at a walk, and not a "show gait" it may not seem like a difficult task for the horse.
Folks may not realize that philosophies may have to change when training a "different" kind of an act, although they would appear to be horses all the same. You can use stopping and putting away as a positive reward for a single horse. How to to stop and reward a "group" of horses when 9 are doing well, and 3 are not. Do you reward the 3 rebellious ones by quiting so as not to punish the 9 cooperative ones? Or do you make them all keep working to correct the 3 rebellious ones thus punishing the 9 cooperative ones? That is where the knowledge of folks like Col. Herriott, Sembach-Krone, knie, Togni etc. plays an important role.
I am sure Col. Herriot will concur that a very important thing for "wanna be/will be" liberty act trainers to remember, is the "one more time factor." When you have just finished a spectacular practice session, and your horses looked magnificent, and your chest is swelled up with pride, and you are strutting around the ring like a peacock, you may be inclined to do it "one more time" just to experience the wonder again. DON,T, DON'T, DON'T, DON'T!!!!!!!! Ninty-nine times out of one hundred, what you assumed would be a 8 to 9 minutes of poetry in motion will turn into an hour of wild eyed confusion, with your horses questioning why you had to be so stupid. I have been there. How about you Col. Herritt. Been there, done that? LOL
Wade
Wade,
I agree with you undoubtedly, but what I saw was a nervous animal getting hit, not being trained to piaffe...this is the one area of animal training where I know the difference between training and abuse. If we were talking cats, elephants, or any other species, I may have misunderstood, but not in this case. :)
Merry Christmas,
Chris
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