Wednesday, December 24, 2008
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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28 comments:
Wade, is Richard a big cat trainer also?
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
I believe he is a physical therapist, and is the youngest.
Wade
From what I know Richard is a lawyer. but Im not 100% sure.
Stefan
Stefan,
A physical therapist 2 years ago. But if you want a mystery, wrapped in a shadow, this is it.
Wade
Okay Wade,
I thought I read it somewhere, but it was probably something else then.
Stefan
Did she train the tigers and lions for martin and Alex. It she a good trainer? Thanks Sven
Now that is RICH,,,,,,,,,,,,LOL
Casey, I got a kick out of it too. Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Mary Ann
Casey ,
what the f ever! she got in the cage with the tigers! whoever the greatest most magnificent Conan the Destroyer trainer was .Whoever gets in the cage deserves some respect!BECAUSE no matter how much flesh you rip off doing aerial fun..it is not being in a cage..unless of course you fall ,do a cartwheel down your web, have the flesh rip off your hand and thank goodness are caught by the prop boss (who you tip with cash dollars!!)Being in a cage seems kind of scary and dangerous to me.
BEX
Easy Beckster,
I didn't say anything to the contrary of what you pointed out: she got in the cage with the tigers. I didn't even mention Conan or The Greatest best-o-the-best. As far as what is scary and what deserves respect...
I get scared when my five year old is at public school all day, and I can't see or control her environment cause it really is a jungle out there.
Catch the HBO special about Cat Dancers, then let me know about unquestioned respect for anyone going in a cage with big cats.
Rebecca,
No disrespect, but just because somebody does something, doesn't make it anything but what it is, and no nobody deserves respect just because they got in a cage. Any more then somebody or ountain climbs or parachutes, or gets on a horses back at a riding stable. The exceptions do take it to another planet. There have been thousands of race car drivers(deserving of respect because they got behind the wheel?) but only a few Richard Petty's. Thousands of quarterbacks(deserving of respect because they got under the center?) but only a few with super bowl rings. No offense, but do me a favor, and never, never, ever equate an animal to an inanimate object like a trapeze. You can not destroy an inanimate object mentally or physically through incompetence or trying your best. But an animal can be ground into mush with the same efforts.
Wade
Rebecca.
Before this deal reaches def con 3, let's review the original question:
"Did she train the tigers and lions for martin and Alex. It she a good trainer? Thanks Sven"
Do you know the individual that Sven is referencing or do you have an answer to his question?
Wade
I ain't no animal trainer but I was on Beatty cole working props when Sue Lacy was there and the tigers always were fighting and missing shows my prob boss Jamie Ramires live in her caravan and he said his tips were better then cash but we got money Bobby Roberts
Sven,
I can say little without being accused of belittling a person, some people are just to "cute and charming" to be critiqued. To answer your question by my account. I watched her present a Hawthorn act many times on Vargas and once in the barn in Richmond. The act on Vargas carried alot of cats that didn't work due to being in heat or fighting issues. I was around the show for most of a season and some of the cats were in heat the whole time. The occasion I saw the act in the barn I studied it rather close (I was considering taking the act the next year) What I saw was confusion on the part of the animals and the trainer. I am all for using meat as reinforcement, and I am for use of a whip as correction, however I am against both if they are used wrong and the animal has no idea why it is fed or hit. If an animal is to be corrected it should be instant, and over just as fast, and it should be done in a manner that the animal understands what and why something was corrected. I mean no dis-respect by this, and I am sure she is one of the nicest people in show business. I also fail to see how nice or pretty someone might be is relevant to their ability in training animals. Martin and Alex however have excelled in great amounts at this having two of the best cage acts working today. I saw humor in your question only because it is like comparing the Ferrari's they are driving to the VW bug she drove. Yeah a bug is cute, but it doesn't do 190 on the autobahn.
Merry Christmas to all the No Spinners!!!!!
Remember Jesus is the reason for the season...
Casey,Wade and all!
As always fun times on the blog.
I always sign off realizing I have learned something and have a different perspective.
I will never walk in the shoes of an animal trainer .I can not possibly imagine going into a cage ever.However when I hear things about declawing and other horrors I do question the whole story and I will admit I lose respect totally.
It is something to build a house, it is another to just move in.
I did not equate trapeze to animal training!!
happy holiday fun time,
Rebexster
Rebecca,
Sorry. I thought you did equate trapeze to animal training by insinuating that it was more dangerous:
"Whoever gets in the cage deserves some respect!BECAUSE no matter how much flesh you rip off doing aerial fun..it is not being in a cage"
Wade
I only asked for interest not for problem. I looked at the white tiger number four times and each time problems.I think more audience feel sorry then enjoy performance. I think if this were Alex or Martin audience would say go home only what I see
Sven
As an aerialist and acrobat, I understand the non-emotional relationship with that apparatus. I have also had the pleasure and honor of working with some of the great animal trainers and presenters of the modern circus. It is defintely a different experience. It took a while to understand being able to work with something that could think or behve differently at any given moment. I will never forget the first time I ws allowed to be in an arena and saw a full grown tiger come out of the chute door. I was in awe and fascinated by the situation and my respect, alredy high for people who work with animals, grew rapidly. It was a life changing experience. I never ws able to realize the dream of ever presenting a big cat act but I realized what an emotional and demanding task it was.
I did have the experience of working and caring for elephants, horses, llamas, camels and dogs and the demands and requirements are so much different from caring for a trapeze. I tresure my experiences with animals far more than my somewhat ordinary success with a piece of aerial equipment or a mechanical cannon. If my equipment broke, I fixed it and went about my life. If an animal in my care was sick or injured, it consumed my life until the issue was resolved.
There are great animal trainers and handlers and there are poor ones. I lerned enough to respect the good ones and learn from them. How do I tell the difference? It is the issue of respect. For good trainers, the animals are the stars with only publicity and marketing types making the trainer a star; the poor trainers make themselves the star and the animals are secondary. Good trainers respect their charges and por ones only respect themselves.
Thanks, Wade for keeping this very open forum working - I'm glad I found it and even in my old age continue to learn so much.
Warren
Rebecca,
Again with respect that is the most bizarre way of telling a good one from a bad one that I have ever heard. The great ones become the star, because the supporting cast has been trained into greatness. I the poor ones don't know how to bring that greatness out of their animals.
We have listed who we think is great based on our knowledge. Who is on your list of the great ones?
Wade
Wade,
I do have to agree with Warren that
"There are great animal trainers and handlers and there are poor ones...For good trainers, the animals are the stars...the poor trainers make themselves the star and the animals are secondary. Good trainers respect their charges and poor ones only respect themselves."
Absolutely profound. I think that the same can be said of ballet teachers, and others.
Mary Ann
Wade,
WOW.Well, first of all I didn't know there was going to be a test.
second ), a piece of rigging is a piece of rigging yes yes yes.moving on
third)I did not realize that an unqualified person could work with animals.In fact I am a little shocked.It is hugely irresposible for an owner of animals to allow someone to work with them. I assumed there was a certain level of expertise you had to have in order to do the job.
4)Great trainers.Name names?
I am not qualified to say who is great.I am assuming the obvious . I do know that persons who exhibit animals that are lost ,misdirected are not great.
Rebecca
Mary Ann,
Again a great trainer like a great ballet instructor make stars, which is turn make them a star. They do not outshine each other. Poor trainers or poor instructors don't make stars out of themselves or the students.
Wade
Rebecca,
Even more bizarre is you defend the care and training of animals based on an assumption? Do you know how many people became elephant trainers, when you could buy one from Arthur Jones for 10,0000.00? As many who had 10,000.00. What is the qualifying standard? As an illustration and for the purpose of learning/understanding why and how this industry got in a jamb, the individual in this picture, was offered the position checked 8 books out of the library on sealions, and two months later was working an act trained by someone else. What were the qualification? A circus right now is looking for a black or Mexican girl to work a zebra and horse act. What are the qualifications or standard? They must be black or Mexican and a young girl. That would be presented to the USDA and the public as the expert we have looking after our animals. Welcome to show biz. It doesn't matter how well it is done, just that it is done.
Wade
Rebecca,
Let me clarify something that you have apparently misunderstood based upon my post. In every case where I, an acrobat and aerialist, was fortunate enough to work with animals, it was under the supervision of a great trainer or expert in animal care and husbandry. With the exception of spending some 20 hours on a plane with some camels and llamas, I never was without an expert to guide me. I never was in cat arena with big cats alone - always with an experienced and respected trainer who was kind enough and trusted me enough to allow me the experience and knowledge.
I was thrilled once when Gaylord Maynard (I know there is a lot of debate over his training methods) allowed me once to ride Bearpaw (IV, if I remember correctly) as he coached me through the entire high school / dressage portion of the act and was amazed that the horse trusted me enough to even allow my efforts.
I never claimed to be a trainer or presenter. I did, however, take advantage of every opportunity to learn and experience the mystery and magic of the world of animals.
What my experiences and the knowledge I gained by being willing to help, asking questions, and getting in there and getting my hands dirty showeling the shit paid off in giving me memories that will last the remainder of my life.
Warren
Warren,
I guess I didn't make myself clear.I was not referencing you as a person who would display or work animals.I am actually envious of all your animal adventures.I am talking about people who make a living flying basically blind displaying animals for cash, when all they do is make a mess of things.It has now been hammered into my head that that is a problem in this industry .
Rebecca
Rebecca,
"Hammered!!!!" You just wouldn't quite eating cotton candy and snow cone, and step out of a 42 ft. circle long enough to look around at what was right there.
Wade
I would like to add that my opinion of a trainers ability is just that....an opinion. Not a personal attack, or anything meant to cause malice. I will also add that I am in no way immune to the opinion of others, and welcome that opinion from the rite source. Hearing how it really is, sometimes sucks and breaks our hearts. For example, if I want to hear how great my cat act is, I will ask the prop guys, the clown, the circus fan. If I want to know what is really wrong with it I will ask someones who knows (I ask Wade, because I don't have Marcans number,,lol) then I get to hear something along the lines of "What the F&%$ is wrong with you!! you have no tempo, you don't time the trick rite, you are crowding up on the cats, they shouldn't do this or that" I ask, because I intend to be better, and do better. Asking the prop boys will get you a life time of mediocrity if you believe them when they tell you how great you are. I am competitive by nature, and refuse to not get better, and since it is easier to get better by asking the best (again, I apologize, I have no contact for Marcan,,,LOL) Someone has maybe mistaken my criticism of trainer on this thread. I am not insinuating the act was bad, it in actuality was one of the better of its era. An era chock full of mediocrity I am afraid. I am just hoping that some how we will break this cycle of "wow, that person went into the arena and put all of them on seats, got the act down the road without getting hurt" to "hey thats something different, I really liked the stuff the cats did" If for no reason other then personal pride, we should be trying to make this more impressive, not just good enough to get a date. That said, it was exactly what it was...nothing more
Casey,
I wanted to give Marcans number to you, but he says, "why would I waste my time with that putz." A couple other really good trainers said the same thing when I asked them. I have been asked that so many times, I really don't know any more why I do. I think era's are to be blamed more on who accepted, more so then who provided.
Wade
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