Saturday, September 20, 2008

Just Speculating on a color that has been studied extensively on a domestic animal

The Champagne gene is a recently discovered dominant gene that has the ability to dilute both black and red pigment. Champagne has visual characteristics that differ from cream, pearl and dun dilutions. Some common characteristics of a champagne horse are: pink skin, dark freckles especially around the eyes and on the muzzle, a shiny coat that is often slightly darker in the winter and eye color that will go through a number of color changes starting blue and evolving to a hazel or amber color. It is possible for a horse to have several dilution genes in which a combination of the dilutive affect will be seen. Champagne dilution is caused by a dominant gene meaning a single copy of the gene will cause a visibly champagne horse. Unlike cream dilution, there are no visual differences between a horse with one copy or two copies of Champagne. A homozygous champagne horse will always pass one copy of the champagne gene to its foal. Heterozygous horses have a 50% chance of passing the gene on to its foals. Gold Champagne is a Chestnut or Sorrel horse plus champagne. Gold Champagne horses also vary in shade, and they appear distinctly different though due to the freckling as stated above. A bay horse plus champagne is referred to as Amber Champagne. Amber Champagne horses are often confused with buckskin or dun. One difference is that Amber Champagnes generally have brown or even hazel eyes.
"White" lion Legend at the Toledo Zoo 31 Expert Commentary

4 comments:

Wade G. Burck said...

Mary Ann said...

Wade, a short while ago we were discussing preferences in manes on male lions. I mentioned that I like the top hair standing up, as it is here on Legend. A week ago yesterday, when we last saw him, his top hair was flopped over, and to me it did not look as attractive as it does standing up.
Mary Ann

September 18, 2008 6:47 AM
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Blogger Wade G. Burck said...

Mary Ann,
When we were discussing manes, I may or may not have mentioned at that time that the longer the mane gets as the animal matures the heavier it also gets and it lays flatter just as it does for humans and other animals.
Wade

September 18, 2008 7:39 AM
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Blogger Amy Shmamy said...

Wade,
beautiful creature. Is this in the genetic code like the white tigers or was the lion born albino?
Amy

September 18, 2008 8:13 AM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Amy, they are not albinos. Here is the most extensive information available on them:
http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/lions-white.htm
Be sure to look at the second page also.
Mary Ann

September 18, 2008 9:02 AM
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Anonymous Steve said...

Mary Ann - Top hair will also lie flat if the lion is wet, or even dampish on a day of very high humidity.

The same animal can look very regal on a hot, dry day and can look like a wimp the next day if it is damp!!!

September 18, 2008 1:18 PM
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Anonymous Steve said...

Mary Ann - thank you for the website you gave Amy about white lions.

Just had a look myself.

No one over here has any knowledge about whites going from Mogo Zoo to Taronga.

As a matter of fact the owner of Mogo Zoo is adamant that NONE of her whites will be seen anywhere else in Australia!

Do you have any further info on a Mogo to Taronga transfer.

All the whites at Mogo are narrow headed, creamy whites.

However, the photos that I've seen of the whites at Zion in NZ show big, broad headed, very white animals with widely spaced eyes.

Do you know where Zion's white lions came from?

September 18, 2008 1:31 PM
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Blogger Wade G. Burck said...

Steve,
You are right. Nothing looks more a sad sack then a lion with his mane soaked.
Wade

September 18, 2008 1:37 PM
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Blogger Wade G. Burck said...

Steve,
Wait!!! Wait!!!! Don't ask!!! Oh well, too late. I hope Joe has eaten today, because you are about to get schooled. Pull up a chair and get comfortable. LOL
Wade

September 18, 2008 1:59 PM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Wade, Joe won't be coming home until late tonight since he and his friends went golfing straight from work, so I am on my own for dinner.
Mary Ann

September 18, 2008 2:20 PM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Steve, thank you for the fact about manes. I think Legend's was just damp last week. I'm glad that you enjoyed the messybeast white lion dissertation. If you notice at the top, I am one of the contributors, and Joe took some of the pictures. I also furnished the information for the genealogy charts. However, I only furnished the information for the American ones, and the ones at Fritz Wurms in Germany. Sarah Hartwell in suburban London actually owns the website, and can be contacted at sarah.hartwell@blueyonder.co.uk
Mary Ann

September 18, 2008 2:28 PM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Steve, if you look at the genealogy chart titled Johannesburg Line of White Lions, near the lower right, Nokanda had two heterozygous brothers, Tombo and Tonyi. They went to Aukland NZ, and I lost track of them. It would be my guess that they are the fathers or grandfathers of the ones at Zion. If you find anything, please let me know.
Mary Ann

September 18, 2008 2:42 PM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Steve, I just looked in the North American Regional African Lion Studbook, and found that Tombo and Tonyi went from Auckland to Melbourne to Werribee. When in Aukland Tonyi fathered a litter of four female cubs (Katazi, Kuchani, Amali, Amira) on May 6, 2001 (the studbook does not give the color); the first three went to Sydney. All are listed as ltf (lost to follow-up). Apparently, there is no International African Lion Studbook, since a very dear friend tried to obtain a copy for me about a year ago.
Mary Ann

September 18, 2008 3:23 PM
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Blogger Wade G. Burck said...

Steve,
I told you school was on. Are you taking notes?

September 18, 2008 4:26 PM
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Blogger Wade G. Burck said...

Mary Ann,
I am assuming Joe took a look at the blog today, saw the question from Steve and thought, "Hell, I might as well go golfing. Mary Ann is going to be busy. Here we are trying to rehab you, and Steve and I walk you right into the saloon. LOL What do you think of "Amber Champagne?" Or should we just stay with the geriatric less confusing Champagne, and use Amber for the various shades of lions? You two are throwing "White" lion around pretty freely with out quotes.
Wade

P.S. Tell Steve the albino Koalas can be white as well as the albino Wallabies, and any Kangaroos that may pop up, but call a spade lion a spade lion.

September 18, 2008 4:38 PM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Wade, Joe doesn't read the blog. The last time he looked at it was when I pointed out that you posted Harmon Killibrew for him. I have been a golf widow every Thursday night since last spring, and most Sunday mornings. This fall he will be spending one night a week taking a class for his master's degree, so I'll be on my own then also. As for the lions, I only used the term "white" twice in a total of three posts, and it was with regard to the messybeast website. I didn't think that Steve knew of the ban here on calling them "white lions", and that we agreed long ago to call them "champagne lions", and I didn't want to confuse him. I thought about the amber deal, and it makes sense that the champagne lions would come in different shades, since the regular lions vary so much in shade. What do you mean, rehab me? This and white tigers are my passion , and I will be at this until the day I die. This and staying young are what keeps me going as long as possible.
Mary Ann

September 18, 2008 4:59 PM
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Blogger Wade G. Burck said...

Mary Ann,
I didn't realize you could get a master degree in golfing?
I am sorry, I guess I was very unfair in mentioning the color usage. I didn't realize you only used "white" lion 2 out of 3 times. That "monkey on your back" is stronger than I suspected. LOL I guess without even a standardized stud book, the color acceptance is going to be as easy for some, as wildcatting for oil.
Wade

September 18, 2008 5:34 PM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Wade, Joe is working toward a master's degree in finance, and I get bored silly with politics and economics. What monkey are you talking about?
Mary Ann

September 18, 2008 6:46 PM
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Blogger Wade G. Burck said...

Mary Ann,
I didn't really assume it was a degree in golfing. I would like to hire Joe, and be his first client when he graduates. I could use some help. LOL
The monkey is the white/colored feline addiction you struggle with daily. With my Arabian horse pedigree "jones" I can sure sympathize and appreciate it. As I have stated before, you knowledge of the subject is commendable.
Wade

September 18, 2008 6:57 PM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Wade, I don't struggle with it. I enjoy it to the point of ecstasy, as you have witnessed. However, you are correct in calling it an addiction; that is why I have used the phrase "white tiger fix" on more than one occasion.
Mary Ann

September 18, 2008 7:05 PM
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Anonymous Steve said...

Did I start all that?????

Wade - go attend to other posts - Mary Ann and I have serious business to discuss.

MA - I will follow this up with the Species Coordinator for African Lions in Australia.

NO ONE is saying, or has said, anything about Tombo and Tonyi being hets. Especially as ARAZPA [our zoo association equivalent of your AZA] is dead set against whites.

The owner of Mogo Zoo got into big strife with the "zoo elite" when she imported the whites from Lanseria.

Not sure that any lion would have gone from Auckland to Zion.

The lions at Zion are, as I posted earlier, superb and are truly WHITE! A friend of mine will be at Zion next week and will try to get some more info on their ancestry. However, Zion's owner is a bit of a mystery man in the industry. He stayed here with us last year and we couldn't get much [any!] background information about him from him.

His cat handling methods are a bit scary but he has survived so far so I guess he meets the "standard"

Unfortunately I will be away from home for a fortnight from Saturday and will be sans computer so this dialogue may become a bit protracted.

I would welcome any further light that you may be able to shed on the Zion animals.

September 19, 2008 4:59 AM
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Blogger Amy Shmamy said...

Mary Ann,
I just realize how rude I was not to thank you for all the information. As wade has said you are truley knowledgeable on the subject. By chance do you know anything about Poona? I don't know how reliable Wikipedia is, but they talk about an indochinese white tiger being born at the Woodland Park Zoo in 1962. I tried googling his name and couldn't bring up much.
Thanks again Mary Ann
Amy

September 19, 2008 5:47 AM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Amy, there is also a two-page messybeast section on white tigers:
http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/tigers-white.htm
Again, I was only one of several contributors, another being Paul McCarthy mentioned at the top. I have not been in touch with him since mid-May. He also wrote the vast majority of the wikipedia article, although I don't know if anyone has updated it since then. Poona, one of Kesari's three mates, is somewhat of a mystery to us, and even if you can get your hands on a copy of K.S.Sankhala's book "Tiger!", it isn't much help on this one. Poona has been thought to be related to Mohini, and also stated to be "unrelated, from outside the gene pool". He and Kesari had six cubs, of only one survived. I found some correspondence between Paul and myself from last fall regarding this. I had called the registrar at Brookfield Zoo, and she told me that Poona was born in Seattle on August 7, 1962, and came to Brookfield Zoo in June, 1963. He went to National Zoo in September, 1972, and returned to Brookfield Zoo in 1973. He died on November 26, 1979. She has no information on his parents. He is listed as panthera tigris corbetti, or "North Indochinese tiger". I had then called Woodland Park Zoo in Seattle, and the registrar told me that many records from that era were destroyed, and the records only go back to 1970. She has been there for over thirty years. Wade has succeeded in convincing me that if there are no known modern-day descendants, then it is not worth pursuing. It is also interesting to note that the Indochinese subspecies was not even defined way back then.
Mary Ann

September 19, 2008 6:25 AM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Steve, if you could get your hands on an Australian African Lion Studbook (if one exists) it might help, since as I mentioned, here is no International African Lion Studbook. Everything that I knew up until yesterday, like a lot of my white tiger information, was gathered on my own. It was in the North American African Lion Studbook that I found the transfers of Tombo and Tonyi. Since they are heterozygous, not white, they would be easy to hide. Also very few private owners register their animals with the studbook, so those at Zion could have come from a private breeder, and very few of them ever want to talk about their stock, or their origins. (It has been my personal experience that it is because they are either lying or hiding something, not simply protecting their privacy.)
Mary Ann

September 19, 2008 6:38 AM
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Blogger Wade G. Burck said...

Mary Ann,
Explain to Steve how they are not "truly white, given what you have learned about color genetics.

Steve,
Survivability has nothing to do with being qualified or meeting a standard. Survivability much of the time comes from playing it safe. Pushing the envelope, going to the edge to produce different/winning results will often times result in death or serious injury.
Ayrton Senna one of Formula One's greatest drivers was killed in 1994, as was Nascars Dale Earnhart in 2001. Howard Hughes was arguably one of the greatest aviators of all time, and he "augered in" more then most and survived to become a nut job. One of the greatest bull riders of all time, Lane Frost was killed in 1989 and the performance standard he set inspires many Champions today. The Congressional Medal of Honor is not awarded for participation, it is awarded for "bravery above and beyond," the standard set for a warrior.
Other side of the standard coin, should I climb into the drivers seat, cockpit or take a wrap on a bull rope and piddle around and not sustain an injury that's called shit house luck, nothing to do with qualified or not, and is sure not a standard to be emulated.
Wade

September 19, 2008 6:56 AM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Steve, never mind what I said about trying to get your hands on an Australian African Lion Studbook. EAZA only has Panthera leo persicus, and ARAZPA only has Panthera leo senegalensis. In other words, The regional ones for the EAZA and ARAZPA are subspecies specific so they would not be of any help since they don't cover Panthera leo krugerii.
Mary Ann

September 19, 2008 7:43 AM
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Anonymous Steve said...

Wade - here we go again! LOL

If the fact that you've "survived" over a period of time does NOT mean that you've achieved a certain standard [and I'm not necessarily disagreeeing with you, wel what DOES?????

What was measurable about what Lane Frost did that people can relate to today and strive to emulate?

What was MEASURABLE?????

September 19, 2008 1:31 PM
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Blogger Wade G. Burck said...

Steve,
We have had what's called a "certain" standard for close to 200 years, and it brought the profession to the respect and admiration that is is known for today.
Each person has to ride for 8 sec., and can't touch the randomly drawn bull with the free hand. That is a standard that each individual is required to adhere to. No body is given a smaller bull because they are not as strong, nobody is allowed to hold on with two hands, nobody is allowed to ride in a soft spot while the others are required to ride where it is hard, etc. No fan can come up later and say "Bob Johnson is the best. Even though he bucked of in 4 seconds, and held on with 2 hands, his hat stayed on."
I don't think they let Danica Patrick take a short cut, or drive for less miles in a race because she is a women. When she wins she is the best on equal ground, no favors, no concessions, with a standard.
Wade
Wade

September 19, 2008 3:24 PM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Steve, here is an article with a picture of the lion cubs at Mogo Zoo.
Mary Ann

September 20, 2008 9:23 AM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Steve, it might have been nice of me to remember to include the link. Here it is:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23583055-662,00.html
Sorry.
Mary Ann

September 20, 2008 9:31 AM
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Blogger Wade G. Burck said...

Mary Ann,
Jesus!!! You are like Albert Einstein. He understood the theory of relativity, but he used to come to lecture in his skivvies because he forgot to put his pants on in the morning.
You can quote what White Tiger banged what White Tiger in 1980, and for how long coitus occurred, and whether or not they smoked a cigarette afterwards, and what brand, but you can't remember to post a link which you referenced in your comment. I can see why Joe values his Tee time. LOL
Wade

P.S. For any readers who might wonder, yes Mary Ann is blond.

September 20, 2008 9:40 AM
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Anonymous Mary Ann said...

Wade, you know it's only blonde highlights around the face, with longer brown hair in the back, kind of like a lion. LOL
Mary Ann

September 20, 2008 9:49 AM

Anonymous said...

Wade,

My horse is an American Cream Draft (looks like champagne) with unbelievable hazel eyes.

Chris

Wade G. Burck said...

Chris,
You just described the mythical "white" lion.
Wade

Anonymous said...

Steve, I just found out that Craig Busch from Zion Wildlife Gardens in New Zealand obtained his first "white" lions from the Rhino & Lion Park in South Africa. He also has a breeding program for barbary lions. Also, Tombo and Tonyi are still at Werribee:
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Zoo-Melbourne-Werribee-Open-Range-Zoo-September