http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpFgGSRikgM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkp2hc0n-2A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgsup1v-A8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olJAzoDfILA
(Don't let this young ladies parents cheering in the background influence you)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCubTiVSER0
Here is your assignment rate each act from one to ten using as the standard
Difficulty 1 to 10
Creativity 1 to 10
Originality 1 to 10
We have readers with ballet/classical training, we have tiger trainers in the circus, we have horse trainers in the circus, we have a judge trained in the classical art, we have fans, and we have tiger fans, as well as horse fans. So everybody have a go
and it will train you to judge apples against oranges using a 3 step standard 1 to 10. It goes without saying everyone in on the time honored honor system.
Wade Burck AmLL
Tuesday, August 26, 2008
Now that we have the idea, lets do apple to oranges
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Wade G. Burck
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13 comments:
First I must say I judged it like a reining... If 1 was low and 10 was high everyone started with a 5 in each (Difficult, Creative, Original) or a total of 15 when they first started. Then I added or subtracted from what I saw.
Tiger 19
Acrobatic 17
Ballerina 15
Dog 10
Reiner 4
Thank you Judge Jody. John, Vincent, Rob, Chris, etc. here's your chance to judge in a bonafide festival. Let's see your results.
Wade
Wade Burck America's Living Legend,
here are my scores:
I was not very impressed with the first act, the young lady dressed as a ballerina balancing on her head on the trapeze; the Swan Lake theme at the end was a nice touch, but not enough to sway my scores.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpFgGSRikgM
Difficulty 8
Creativity 5
Originality 5
Total score 6
The young man in the second act exhibited flexibility, grace, strength, and balance in a beautifully executed routine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkp2hc0n-2A
Difficulty 9
Creativity 9
Originality 9
Total score 9
The tigers in the third act exhibited some time-honored behaviors. However there was some hesitation during the fire hoop, and the leap overs were somewhat sloppy. Excellent hind leg walk. Enjoyable elephant hoop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgsup1v-A8
Difficulty 9
Creativity 8
Originality 7
Total score 8
The horsewoman in the fourth act seemed a bit amateurish, especially in comparison to the palomino that we saw yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olJAzoDfILA
Difficulty 7
Creativity 4
Originality 4
Total score 5
The fifth act of fake dogs and the little girl acrobat/gymnast was just plain silly, although the little girl was very talented.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCubTiVSER0
Difficulty 6
Creativity 3
Originality 3
Total score 4
Mary Ann
Judge Mary Ann,
Thank you. And thank you for you thoughts, That is something an MC judge does not have to do.
Wade
Wade, I have been trying to learn from you, and I could be way off base on this, but I have watched the tiger act a few more times and have second thoughts about it. I have noticed that there are several people in the ring (intimidation perhaps?), and that there is not only hesitation, but also what appears to be fear, at the start of the excellent hind leg walk. Also wondering if the hoop on the elephant's trunk is a behavior that can eventually cause a paralyzed trunk. As you can see, we fans who are members of the uneducated public don't know the answers to these questions, or even how to raise them. This leaves us at the mercy of whoever will answer these questions: AR nuts, self-serving bad apples in the industry, or experts who can hopefully come up with standards someday.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
I think by now we understand, what naming something the best in a apple to orange competition is a sham, at best, and it looks like nobody else has the courage to do it. I think it has a lot to do with an expense paid trip to the Riviara.
Note Jody who is familiar with Reining horse and would judge then hard rated the reiner last. And the tigers first. You being familiar with ballet rater her so so. You rated the reiner against what you saw yesterday, not realizing the girl was working without a bridle.
I would have rated the tigers the lowest, some of what you already stated, plus they were laying down facing backwards, and if you look close at the tape again, he is walking it with no stick or whip, right in its face, yet it is afraid to strike at him. Look at the start when the tiger refuses, and he steps toward it with nothing in his hands. Look at the tigers reaction, and tell me it does not have the fear of God in it, and that is your gentle in the public no stick training, in a nut shell.
I don't think an honest person could fairly judge a MC Apples to Oranges Festival. I am honest enough I could have rated the acrobat low, because I don't like sloppy looking costumes, and wallering around on the floor. I would have rated the ballerina high by her behind, I have no idea what she did in regards to other head ballence trapeze and I have seen dozens over the years. I would have rated the reiner low, because I don't like anything bridle less. I would have chopped the deal with the dogs in a heart beat, as I don't think it has a place in the circus, and it was a Circus festival was it not. But I also don't care for motorcycles or the likes in the circus.
I also hope the comment to ignore her supporters, did not influence anybodys vote. That is my right as AmLL.
Do you really believe there is enough integrity in this deal of ours, that performer judges would not cast there vote similarily?
Or people familiar with one thing, but not the rest. Imagine now another 3 day's of different but similar acts like elephants and trapeze!!!!!!
Wade
Mary Ann,
No the hoop deal can not lead to paralysis of the trunk. It is a vitamin deficiency remember, but in seriousness no the ring deal will not cause it, but other things will.
Wade
I judged these on a 30 point total for perfect. The ballerina D-6,C-6, O-3 total of 15. If she wasn't atractive would have had a hard time staying focused on act. Nice presentation, but nothing new.
The acrobat D-8, C-8, O-8, total of 24. very well presented.
Tigers D-5, C-2, O-2 total of 9. Hindleg walk only redeeming factor. Would have liked to see the tiger stand on the backs of the others than just push off them.
Horse D-6, C-6, O-6 total of 18. Don't know much about horses, but this horse seemed well trained. No where near the presentation by Stacey Westfall.
Dogs D-5, C-0, O-9 total 19. This was not an award winning act, but was entertaining for the children. Maybe K&N can book this for next year. Would be good at a theme park or kids show.
Darryl,
Would you have know it was not Stacy Westfall, who I consider a very over rated self promoter, if you had not had Stacey Westfall videos to consider on the same site. This girl won in the freesstyle completion which is do what you want, and give use music and a costume. Counts for nothing in the reining year end standings as it has now standard. Just a fun class.
Wade
Like I said, I know nothing about horses. Just being honest with my opinion of what I liked. That is the problem with judging with no standards or expertise. LOL
Darryl,
In all the years you worked in the Circus, Ringling etc. or visited how many different acts did you see not animals but all the others, that you can really remember, thats assuming you visited and watched and weren't working. That is what judges
Monte Carlo each year with standards similar to what we used here.
Only no body ever knows how they voted, and we are assured of an honor where you would not compare to your expertize or who or what body type you like.
Last year it was a juggler, an acrobat, a tiger presenter, a flyer, a trapeze contortionist, and an instructor from a state school in China.
They judged everything from an elephant act with horse, to a riding act, to jugglers, trapeze acts, contortion acts, mixed cage act, clowns, etc. to come up with Gold and Silver, which is then billed as the BEST 0 The Best to the public for years on which ever show they are one.
I can understand pairs figure skating judged against other pairs, but I would have a hard time judging a singles against a pairs, and the gymnasts, on the pommel to the broad jumper, against the show jumper. Maybe I don't have that integrity and honor that is required of a judge.
Wade
Wade,
I believe the problem lies when someone wins first in "whatever" that the public believes that they must be the BEST... Not so in my eyes...To me it means it was the best on that particular day and with THAT JUDGE/JUDGES giving their opinion on that day...Of course the public just thinks that it must be a winner or why did it win..Example..a horse wins National Champion Halter Stallion..Public thinks it must be a great horse...They book all their mares to him...Doesn't mean their foals are going to be fantastic...
Do you need a decent horse to be National Champion Halter Stallion? It helps but unlimited funds to spend on advertising and politics in your favor helps more.
I found this little judging contest you had here very typical..Yes, we all were harder on the acts we personally know best..Besides judging the videoes I also asked myself which one would I be able to do to that degree...(if I was younger and when I was more flexible..LOL)
I can appreciate the dedication and training that went into the Acrobat and the Ballerina but with the ability and discipline I think I could have done that back then..if I had the desire..(I did add Younger to that didn't I?) Not knowing anything about tigers but knowing that you are dealing with another mind/minds other than yours that automatically makes it more difficult in my mind...You can't just control yourself as with the Acrobat and Ballerina...So the degree of difficulty was higher with the tigers...I would have raised the difficulty level even more if there was only one person in there...The dog act was a comedy deal..something I'd expect to see the clowns do...The reiner, I did give her 1/2 point for riding an App....(that will open a big can of worms)Of course what we don't know with her was how bad the other reiners were in that class..She might have deserved to win it.
Then of course a person's personal likes and dislikes come into play. Should that be allowed when judging? No but it happens. I'd have a hard time giving points to a reiner if I didn't like the way it moves. Now I am supposed to be judging the manuevers. I have not checked the new NRHA judging rules but they used to have a place you could plus or minus if you either didn't like something on a whole or if you liked it..We called that the politics box..A rider could win or lose just by a judge marking something in that box...Don't get me wrong, I think as a whole the reiner's judging system is more fair than some of the other breeds out there...Especially those that just have to place the horses and not give any reasons what so ever...At least when the reiner's cards are posted you can see how they judged each manuver...And yes there are guidelines for them to follow and hours of videos to judge before they get their card but still it's their opinion on what they consider a plus or plus half manuver.
So can one judge apples against oranges?
Sure, we do it every presidental election...And as always there will be different opinions on the winner....
i hope to have time to do this one over the weekend. this whole idea is something i feel very strongly about. i still think quality counts and better quality might bring bigger crowds.
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