Yesterday I posted a couple of pictures of girls doing a split between two elephants. I noted two spotters and two people holding the two elephants, in essence 4 people to assist one in doing a trick. Raffaele de Ritis who has judged a number of circus competitions misunderstood what I was saying and corrected me with this: "In the picture that you posted with two girls (an act I know very well) another solution is used, and very acceptable too. You can remark a small black metallic structure hanging above the girls. This permits them to leave for few second their arms from it, getting some more cleanless than a classic mechanic. And from that picture of course you don't see the spotter in the ring." As I stated me, "I'm just an animal trainer", and my friend Raffaele is a learned critic and competition connoisseur, but from the angle of the elephants head I could see there were 3 elephants head to head, assuming holding trunks, and that wouldn't leave much room for efficient spotters. And now I am misunderstanding something. I think I would understand a circus competition better if I know how they were judged. Example of above and below "difficulty" I don't see 4 helping one below. I see 1 1/2 helping 3. And one controlling 3 elephants. Although I didn't see this, as Raffaele did, I recall in the video they all three did splits on the 3 elephants. And no quantity is not as important as quality. Raffaele with his training maybe able to interpret difficulty in a classical dancer, but I'll bet with my training I can interpret it different if she does it with an animal.
Saturday, August 23, 2008
I still don't understand this????
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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19 comments:
Ok.
This morning I watched both the videos.
Concerning Togni's:
1) I was wrong. The girls NEVER ever leave one of the arms from the iron triple mechanic.
2) Two men (discretely, elegantly and in tuxedo and polished shoes) are between two of the elephants, near their back, with their canes in hand.
This doesn't affect at all the beauty, quality and difficulty of a remarkable and totally original trick. Everything is smooth, natural and fast, by the moment the three elephant tie their trunks, to the classy bow of the three girls in the ring at the end. The safety solution is clean and appropriate.
Concerning the Big Apple trick:
1) I was not bothered at all by the fact of spotters instead of mechanics. Spotters here, if not in tuxedo, are two beautiful artists perfectly costumed in context.
2)Melinda is in immensely talented performer and, again, is just a pleasure to see this without mechanical aid.
I've been trying to find previous documents of this without mechanic. Even in the oldest Knie programs, they always use one, darkening the house around. I may be wrong, but the BAC-Woodcock-Melinda is the only version ever done that way.
And Flavio is the only ever to have done it with three bulls/girls.
And now, the constructive and interesting part of the discussion.
Considering the above: in an appropriate dream-competition Togni vs Woodcock, who could be the winner?
We are facing two differently remarkable achievements. Personally, I think that a Festival must judge the overall context of a produced act than to compare single tricks.
A good example (and at least a good thing of Monte Carlo last jury): was the denying of one of the three major awards to the flying troupe. They just deserved a "special mention" to accompish the quad. Being also a message that even the greatest trick in the history doesn't do an act.
p.s.
For how low we want consider the idea of a Monte Carlo Award, Flavio is the only performer in the history that won THREE times a Silver, with three completely different elephant acts: we are talking of 36 years and almost thousand acts (after him, only Mr.Elvin Bale got it twice). It says something about the value of what he and his company does in the ring.
Raffaele,
I'll take your word for it, but I sure don't see all those people mentioned, as I just see what looks like red coveralled legs. And one tux at the curtain.
I believe Tina Gebel did it without a mechanic, and there are pictures I will see if I can locate one.
Speaking of overall context, how does one of Flavios silvers compare with Wendell Hubers, the Cassertellys, or Laura Millers Gold?
I agree about the flying act, the kissing the floor, cape/flag presentation was enough to turn the most jaded suck up green. Were you aware of the major personal issues between he and one of the judges. He can even be seen trying to patch with one of the judges on an internet photo. I was aware of the beef three years before the festival when no body knew they would be judges or competitors.
I started a USA/Europe thread at your suggestion which I think is brilliant, as I think there have been many misconceptions by both sides started by self servers.
Thank you, Raffaele you are one of a rare exception with the courage to speak your mind, with out first seeing if you have an army that agrees, and if you don't just being quite and going with the flow.
Like the WWF who became the WWE, when they said you are right, it's fake, it's not a sport, it's entertainment, I think if we could decide did we want to be art, theatre, circus, entertainment, for children of all ages, or adult entertainment we would have a direction on which to build.
Wade
Interesting to learn about the Tina Gebel trick. I go to browse in some old program to find a pic.
About other silvers:
-Huber: I think it was more or less deserved, being an impressive achievement of training and an original act. But I don't consider it in the eventual category of a proper "elephant act".
-To be clear: Casselly and Casartelli are two different things.
Casselly is the German family that presented elephants last year. They got silver, and I prefer not comment.
Casartelli is a 7-generation circus family owner of Medrano, from Italy, one of Europe's top circuses, and several safari parks in Italy. They didn't had a silver, but got TWICE the gold for the ensemble of their equestrian and exotic presentations (including also elephants). Only Alexis Gruss and Knie families got a Gold twice.
P.S.
By the way, Casartelli are also the owners of the beautiful tiger act presented by Alfredo Beautour, that includes a good forward-jumps trick.
Raffaele,
I am clear on Casartelli and Cassellys after the discusssions. What I am not clear on is how they rate a silver with 4 horses and 4 elephants, and Wendell Huber rates the same with 2 elephants and 2 dogs? The Wegmans did it years ago with lions and tigers, even used the same breed of dogs, and further back Hugo Schmidtt did it with a dog a pony and a llama, but you are right it wasn't a St. Bernard it was just old Smokey. If MC judging standards are going to consider
2 St. Bernards and two elephants as an "impressive achievement of training and an original act," it is more amateurish, isolated, and unknowing them I suspected.
I only saw videos of Huber but I did see the Casselleys live. I don't know what the airealist, juggler, cultured theatre judges saw, but what this elephant/horse trainer saw, was if Humber rated silver this Casselly deal rates Gold. Wouldn't you love to know how "a Childrens Show gold award winner" at the age of 14, rates that act against what was presented last year at MC? How about how a tiger act rates her silver against the bronze cage act this year? Oh, that's right, like God they are beyond question and reproach, and don't have to explain anything to the peasants. You must just have faith, my son. Just a rough estimate based on private emails the past year on the subject. If they weren't afraid of being stoned or burnt at the stake, about 90% of the industry would unanimously agree, "what a self serving hoax!!!!"
Wade
Patty Zerbini also did a split between elephants with no mechanic on Circus Krone.
Anonymous,
You have to have a real name. But in this case, I am just an animal trainer and I am "light armored" against War Lord Raffaele's festival judging expertise, and I need the back up so I am bringing you up to the front lines. LOL Patty isn't classically trained, so there probably wasn't much grace and style. But I don't know, I can't tell the difference. I can only tell between 3 elephants and 3 girls.
Speaking of that, when was the last time you fact checked Great Britains Greatest Female Wild Amimal trainer, or the Greatest Airealist from America, or The most famous clown from France, or what a highly successful tour of the United States actually was?
Wade
I know for a fact GGW and Tina Williams did this trick at least once without a mechanic, cause I am looking at a photo of it in the book "Lord of the Ring". No spotter, just GGW up on one of the elephants holding her hand.
Casey,
I saw it live, but I will have no way of proving that. I was thinking of an 8 X 10 publicity photo with the elephants on tubs, and Boss on the ground. Tina was beautiful and only about 17 or so, and long legged and spidery, so it might not count in the classically trained/dance ballet category. I remember it looked good from the first two rows looking up, but if you went up to row 2876 and looked down, it wasn't such a big deal, unless Boss styled it, but thanks anyway.
Wade
Casey,
FYI It is Gunther and Tina Gebel. Williams is Gunthers hyphenated pedigree. You are lucky you got McCoy Cainan. I got screwed. Adam thinks he might try to hang some paper with Burck-Hall, but I told him "don't be stupid you don't want that heat." LOL
Wade
wade -- i'm not sure but i seem to remember that mark also did the split. in that period, both mark and tina did some impressive things with the elephants, and so did the Cautier boys and donna.
Henry,
But who did it with the most style originality and uniqueness. Mark, 20 year old Tina, 40 year old Donna, Kevin, or Mike. I vote Tina. Who as hotter looking Mark, 20 year old Tina, 40 year old Donna, Kevin or Mike? I vote Tina. Who had the best costume Mark, Tina, Donna, Kevin or Mike. I vote Tina. Who had the biggest shoes to fill doing it? Mark, Tina, Donna, Kevin, or Mike? I vote Mark. Who had the best biceps Mark, Tina, Donna, Kevin or Mike? It would be close but I would vote Kevin. Who had the best pectoral muscles Mark, Tina, Donna, Kevin or Mike. I would want to vote Tina, but in all fairness, I vote Mike. Who makes the best vegetable soup with originality, style and grace. I have only tasted Donna's, and heard about Tina's, so I would have to vote Donna. Shoot Henry, you want to tell me I couldn't judge on of those Monte Carlo apple/oranges deals, with impartiality, fairness, and honor that the artists expect and deserve. I would say I'm a natural, born with the gift? Right?
Wade
wade -- i agree with you on all of the above. tina was so beautiful -- and i understand still is -- that people may not have even noticed the elephants! one of the all-time beauties including the ones from the wagon shows-- i do think the girls started getting better looking in the 40s and 50s and may be one of the things that is still improving. at the same time, you aren't old enough to have seen donna in her day! when she was just out of sarasota's sailor circus, doing single trapeze as donna welch, she was a true beauty in her prime.
Henry,
I didn't know we were judging them on what they used to look like. In that case we have to have in addition to difficulty. costuming, and originality, a "who has the most miles, without looking like a retread" guideline.
I disagree about women looking better in the 50's. Maybe to you they looked better, Henry, but I think they looked better in the 60's when "I" reached puberty. LOL
Regards,
Wade
wade - we have to put everything into perspective. beauty certainly improves the attention span but most people look better when they are younger. if you look at the genes, tina will probably be beautiful all her life -- look at her mother. but i didn't mean the circus ladies looked better in teh 50s -- i meant that is one of the few instances where the circus is still going forward. we have fewer acts, fewer shows, more problems, smaller crowds -- but comparatively speaking we still have some beautiful girls. the 40s-50s era was when the girls started looking like movie stars and fashion models. i know that sounds sexist but that's one of the things i agree with mr feld about -- he always wanted his performers to look as good as possible and was willing to pay costumers to make sure they did.
Henry,
Like the Clyde Beatty deal, I can't speak to the 50's, and you know I am not going to agree just to be "with it and for it", but you are right about the rest. Beauty holds the attention greatly, that's why Miss America and Mr. Universe are are two different deals and why their is a best actor and best actress award. In this profession Henry, beauty has replaced talent. I understand fully it is "show business" and appearance is paramount. That's why I chose not to perform any more in 1994(although I am prettier then Casey, hand down) But imagine a skilled doctor not being hired because the nurse is prettier. The circus has had it's own rules, laws, and regulations, written by whom ever, and as it gets drug kicking and screaming into a regulated PC world, it is struggling more and more. I just keep trying to get an understanding of how it thinks, and hope it will upright it's self.
Wade
Wade, I thought you were going for facts? No one will ever take you serious saying things like "I am still prettier then Casey"
Casey,
The Mary Ann's won't, but the one's who wear their classes won't need any convincing.
Wade
Wade sweetheart, I never said Casey was prettier than you. Can't he be pretty also, or do you have to be the only one?
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
That's a awful broad expanse of pretty, Casey to Me. I guess it would depend on who was in between.
Wade
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