There is a standard for horses in the horse show industry, and everybody competes against that standard. Men and women. It is how abuse was addressed. How long should someone be allowed to "get it right" and at what expense to the physical and mental wellbeing of the animal, Mike. Are you qualified because you buy the animal? You mention two different things needed to train an elephant too different behaviors. Was the physical and mental state of the animal considered in that opinion, and who was qualified to apply them?
A professional horse trainer as a rule will own one or two horses, and have 20 to 25 horses owned by client's in affect a company. With one standard as set by the Arabian industry, will he be able to do things different depending on whether they are his horses or somebody elses? No he can't it doesn't matter who's they are. They will all compete side by side one day and be judged by a standard. What is the exotic, wild, or elephant training standard. Why are the Animal Rights still after us?
What is the standard of a trick? Might one individual have to be more demanding then the other? Might one be perceived as a gentle trainer and the other not because of what they are required to do? Are there two standards or is there one for everybody? What is the standard of difficult?
Mike using this standard that other animal industry have adopted, could you state who has met those standards from the examples posted above? "Are the animals alert, aware of their surroundings, interested? Or apprehensive, scared, "shutting out" and isolating themselves from their surrounding?"
Tuesday, August 26, 2008
For Mike Swain
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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Wade, How long should someone have to get it right? The only thing you could do is see how long it has taken most of the others, and use that as a time frame. Example Inital behaviors on elephant 6-8 wks. No, just because you own the animal doesn't make you qualified to train or even handle. As for the mental health that is why so important to know intent. Making it easier and quicker to shape behavior. Power tricks should not start no earlier than a year for a elephant. There should be one standard. Training is training reinforce the intent to get desired behavior. Animal rights loves to hate us lack of organization and funds on our part. Making us an easy target. What makes a qualified exotic animal trainer. At this point in time it has been the success and longevity of the trainer, and results speak for themselves.
Mike,
"The only thing you could do is see how long it has taken most of the others" What standard qualifies them? How do we know a power trick does not harm them? Any studies been done that I am not aware of? Funds have nothing to do with setting a standard. It doesn't cost a thing.
"As for the mental health that is why so important to know intent." If the intent is good, is the deterioration of mental health justified? Similar to what the road to hell is paved with?
"At this point in time it has been the success and longevity of the trainer, and results speak for themselves." What is success? Monies earned? Training 1 derby winner, or training 4 and destroying 20?
Wade
when I said funds It was directed towards putting positive info out there for general public. Peta spends most of there money educating the public as they wish. Majority of elephants that are still doing power tricks. Show no sign of physical harm. When the animal is trained why would you assume mental deterioration. When two of the most successful breeding programs are trained elephants. There was a study done on mental and physical health on working elephant as to hands off By vet. Ted Friend University Of A and M here in Tx. Found that working elephants live longer and healthier. I would't measure success on amount of money earned. There is no standarg that qualifies them. Again lack of organization. There should be standards that need to be met .
Mike,
Peta educates the public they way they want. Does the circus not educate the public they way they want? So I understand, if there were more funds the circus could educate the public the way they wanted, like Peta. Is that what you were saying?
When you say majority, how many is there in the minority, that were affected. I have already reference Dr. Friend, in a tigers study. I learned from a friend of another he did on transport of elephants. One trip one group of elephants, partial data, and reached a conclusion for all. The what were the working elephants required to do physically in comparison to one foot stands, hind leg walks, for how long and in what conditions, would measure physical and mental well being. Are you saying the success of the breeding was due to the training, and not computability and environment?
Wade
Mike,
What two elephant breeding groups were you referencing as the most successful? Ringling and African Lion Safari?
Wade
Circus spends money on advertisement to promote business, and even less on educating the public of well being of animals in there care. I don't know what the other working elephants due. Ringling and my dad's elephants part of the study. We don't have any one foot stands, had or have front and hindleg stand/walk. There our in there 20's qnd 30's now with no sign of physical harm. Working elephants have better prospect for breeding due to the mental/physical stimuli.
Mike,
Who should spend that money? The shows that own their own elephants, or the shows that hire independent acts, and own no elephants. Is not each person telling the public what they want the same as Peta? How can you state that working elephants are better off when you don't know what that work is. Is a horse swimming in a pool for 15 minutes working? Is a horse running 3 reining patterns in a day working? Or is a horse driving cattle from dawn to dusk working? Or is a horse conditioning for the Kentucky Derby working? Or is a horse pulling the Budweiser hitch working? Or is a stallion breeding 9 mares working?
With all the elephants in the world I would assume more then your fathers, and Ringlings were used in the conclusion of the study.
Speaking of Ringling, and Peta telling the people what they want, I may be wrong but I thought training of elephants, and breeding for performance were a big part of Ringlings program? I'm sure I am wrong, because on their site I can find a lot of pictures, of elephants and barns, and statements from learned Veterinarian, and the work they have done, and information on elephants, etc. but I can find no pictures of elephants being trained. They must do that someplace else, or do I assume they are born trained, and it isn't an important part of their life? I have included their site if anybody wants to look at it. Maybe you can find the training facility and examples of, because I sure can't.
Wade
www.elephantcenter.com
What, I was saying is that working elephants thus far, have had more success at breeding than hands off elephants. Ringling breeding program consist of working elephants. The ones that are born are trained and put in show. For example "Romeo" who is now breeding second generation captive born elephants. Who should spend the money? Shows that own elephants or hire. Same for the private owner's. Ask the general public if they have heard of Peta,then ask if they are heard of elephant center. What would the result be? I would like to know what is the standard to be a qualifed horse trainer, can this be applied to exotic animal training?
Mike,
You are telling me that working elephants breed better, but you haven't defined working. What part of the Ringling program was started before it became Ringlings program? You mention training, but you didn't tell me what to click to see that training or to find out about that training.
Of course, the same standard could be used for exotics, but first what is training and what is acceptable. Each breed as defined it's standard on which each animal competes against the other. Break a standard/rule in the Arabian industry, and you are suspended for 5 years. Example you can train draft horse, buy you won't be allowed to compete in an Arabian show.
Wade
I went and looked, sure enough no mention of training elephants at the center's site. I also went to see the rules of what would disqualify an Arabian Horse trainer, and learned two things. First, there are a bunch of Arabian Horse Associations, kinda like there are a bunch of tents and building's using the name "circus". I assume, getting DQ'ed from one doesn't prevent a trainer from going to another. After finding what sounded like the two most recognized assoc. The National, and International, Arabian Horse Associations I went to their web sites. Says everything you should take for each kind of event, where you can go to an Arabian farm, good Arabian vets, and where the events are. I couldn't find anything about who can train a horse or how they should do it. I will keep looking.
Casey,
Go to Arabian Horse Association, and click on membership and then click on handbook and active resolution. Also click on censures and suspension, one of the first names you will note is Boggs, David C. who I have referenced in the past as "the GGW of Halter Horse Trainers", the best of the best who has won more mare/filly championships and reserve championship then anybody, then buy a membership and you and your horse can compete in the largest sanctioned shows in the United States for the coveted Nationals Grand Champion, but remember you are held to a standard and somebody is watching.
Wade
Casey,
Once you are a member there are many committees/boards you can be elected to, ie.
ETHICAL PRACTICE REVIEW BOARD
EQUINE STRESS/RESEARCH & EDUCATION COMMITTEE
PRESIDENT'S PUBLIC RELATIONS & COMMUNICATION TASK FORCE
MARKET DEVELOPMENT & PROMOTION COMMITTEE (These two should interest Mike)
PROFESSIONAL HORSEMEN COMMITTEE
And the list goes on and one, depending on you time, and how the election works out.
Wade
Casey,
I think this is the one you are interested in:
PROFESSIONAL HORSEMEN COMMITTEE
CULBRETH, CHRIS CHAIR (1)
BROWN, MARY JANE VICE CHAIR (4)
HART, KATHARYN S BOARD LIAISON
ELKINS, DAUANE STAFF LIAISON
There are about 30 members but these are the elected officers. Chris Culbreth trains out of a farm in Colorado and is a great western and reining trainer. If you get in touch with them after you get your membership, they will put you in with the Professional Trainers Association, and if you can show that you have been a member of the Arabian Horse Association and have adhered to all bylaws for a certain number of years, with no suspensions or reprimands, regardless of who your Daddy is, how many generations your family has been in Arabian horse, or who you know, they will accept you. It is quite beneficial financially as you become a recommended trainer to anyone buying a horse and wanting it trained to your disciplines.
Wade
Ringling is promoting What they are doing to help propogate the Asian elephant. Don't know why no pics. of training elephants. We know there bred and will be placed on show. Where did the original breeding stock come from Roman Schmitt. "Vance" has sired more baby elephants than any other elephant in the U.S. and Canada Ex performing Ringling elephant. Working elephant in this case would be Traveled and perfomed, at some point in time. You could step in with Vance or Rex,Tusko and Thailand. While they are in musth and giver ago May not go so well for you, that is why a say at some point in time. Do you agree that working elephants make better breeders or is there some facility that has always been protected contact, or hands off with better results. Who and what qualifies a person to train Exotics in your opinion? Difference between trainer/handler? More negative stimuli reguired to train more difficult behavior?
Mike,
I think the initial response was that Peta had the money to tell the public what ever they wanted to and the poor circus didn't. I just showed you that we do, and we are telling them what we want to. Something I guess Peta is wrong to do. I know where Vance came from. I made a statement about Vet's thumping there chest over their great work. What are births in the lumber camps, compared to captive? I am not sure. I think handling has led to some of the success, not that they are sitting up on tubs or walking on their hind legs. As with all stallions work is beneficial, I'm just not convinced doing rides is better then moving logs. Along with good handling is bad handling can lead to physiological stress in horses, which has lead to impotency. Have there been studies done on exotics to that effect? I realize it is a "newer" endevour and equine have been used for thousands of years longer, so maybe those studies are coming.
The more qualified you are the less negative stimuli is needed for even the most difficult behavior, once the "standard" through valid non self serving studies have proven what is physically harmful and what isn't in the long run. Is feeding them candy during the show, and then "schooling them after" harmful mentally. Is that inconsistency harmful mentally. Incredibly harmful, I have witnessed it for 34 years, as harmful as, I am angry at my dog, so I am going to take it out on you, as harmful as putting the fear of God into an animal. Not necessary in the 21 century we can control their environment if we chose to raise them, or we can buy them form qualified people who have controlled the environment.
Wade
Wade, I agree displaced aggression has no place in animal training. Animals should be worked through control not fear. By practicing controlled behaviors like a good solid lay down. steady coming to you and away and foot pivots. In the late 70's bought 3 little males from Gary Johnson Bimbo now called Rex Vance and Casey Without much knowledge of elephants. My dad went on to work Vance and Casey for the next 10 years or so. Don't think would have had the same result without the solid foundation Gary put on them. Same reason when we bought two male from Roman Scmitt. In 87 and 92. My dad brought in Army Maguire to train them He's trained over 70 elephants mainly African Because that's all that was out there. I am thankful to him for being patient with my ignorance and showing me how to do things better than in past. There is always more to be learned, and by no means an expert at training elephants.
An interesting note at an EMA conference one criticized Ringling for flooding the captive gene pool with Vance having so many calves. The same could be said of Onyx, Thai, Thonglaw, Charlie, and Indy. Of these six bulls there have been at least 80 calves hit the ground, most living though some not. The comment was made there, however, that maybe we should learn a little more about how things work and get a few more on the ground before we start culling them. Because of those eighty, how many are still alive today? Thai 1, Thonglaw 2, Onyx 4, Indy 5. Ironically enough, Ringling would be the exception with their two bulls siring nearly thirty still alive today. These are the facts you do not hear about on the "bleeding heart" sites.
Ryan,
One those pro breeding sites, how many state, we wish there would have been bans on the importation of elephants in the 50, and we couldn't buy 5-10 at a time. We would have started attempting to breed them sooner, and we would be more advanced.
In 1975, I went on a show to pick up 3 elephants. When I got there I saw 50 elephants on chains, 3 adults, and the rest youngsters between 2-5. That is 47 female elephants, Ryan in 1975. When the "History Channel" ran a picture of part of them, I asked 32 years later how many of them are alive or still working? Do you know what the answer was? Nothing. Nobody chose to answer me.
Wade
Valid point Wade. Though importation now, when restricted, can still be very benenficial. The San Deigo/Lowry Park imports brought two? breeding bulls with new genetics to the country, and how many births have stemmed from that group now? several at the least. It is a balance that is needed, disregarding the problems keeping them alive we are having right now with EEHV and other obstacles. What was the 75 show? Ringling I would assume with that many elephants. Who were the three if you remember?
Wade,
Anyone watching American Dog? Dogs are being asked to jump off a ramp to their owner. Yes they do have a harness on for safety. I think I also saw previews of them being told to stay near an elephant. Might be on later or I might have missed it. Do you think Peta approves or is CBS going to be their next victim?
Also, back to educating the public..I think it's hard to use the horses for comparison..Any weekend you can go to a multiple of equine clinics and you don't need to own a horse to go..How many clinics are out there for training elephants or tigers that the public is allowed to attend? Just another thought for the comment box.....
Ryan,
You are not listening. I said babies. Ringling I don't think has ever had that many babies in their history. It was Carson and Barnes, and I can remember one adult named Luba or Lydia something with an L I think, and an African calf named Paula. The rest were Asian. The 3 I picked up were Obert(the original breeding bull) Kelly and Tracy. All 46 had their names spray painted on their foreheads so they could tell them apart. Paula was easy, she had big ears. But you probably knew that.
Wade
Ryan,
Lets say they relax importation for a special case. What's the chances the zoo up the road says, If they can have one we can have one too, the the circus says, no fair everybody hates us so we should be able to have some too. Think there is a chance that would happen?
Wade Burck
My deepest apologies Wade, I will keep that in mind lol. But that is intersting, I was not aware C&B had that kind of history, and to be honest I don't know much about their history at all other than a few of their cows I have been around. What was Obert like? I don't know anything about him. And don't criticize Paula for her ears, I grew up with some big ones myself and know what a toll it can take on you. lol.
But possibly this could be why we are still trying to catch up to Europe on the zoo side. There breeding programs, facilities, etc are much more advanced then ours, minus a few locations. But they are the "old world." An interesting connection.
Wade-
Absolutely. Probably one of the reasons there was such a fight for the animals, in addition to the AR groups. Things worked well though, and that's a good sign. If we can manage ourselves and show responsibility, possibly more of these could occur. But it is not a substitute for captive breeding programs.
Ryan,
There is a lot of history, it just depends who you ask and what they want to tell you.
Obert was only three when I had him, so he was just your typical male baby, lovable and full of spit and vinegar.
Wade
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