Monday, July 7, 2008
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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11 comments:
Now you're losing me Wade. Even here in Australia this bloke is known to be a hard man on horses. And his father was even harder. How does he fit your definition of a "trainer" and why do you rate him so highly?
Cirque Alexis Gruss will be in Paris from late October until February/March, but will not be showing every day.
John.
Steve,
Good question, because then we would have to define "hard", and what is the end result, and "who" decided they were hard. The cruelest thing in the world is to move a feline with a constant hitting of a small buggy whip, or the hitting at the wrong time, or the "not hitting" at all. Often times people revered for their "gentleness" by fans and the press(the ill informed) produce the most nervous insecure animals, given that inconsistency. They are addressing just that in the racing industry. Is it "hard" to hit a horse 3 time's soundly and be done with it, or to "gently" hit him all the way around the track. The reward is the removal of the negative, and there is no reward from the outrunning of the negative. They are finding that getting the desired result immediately, and not "picking" on the animal produces much less stress and confusion. I have never understood the French Style (correct me if I am wrong on the style/country, Madame Col.) of riding with "active legs". The continuous banging/bumping of the legs in the horses ribs to get forward movement.
Hard Steve, is the "gentle" person who hit's the animal continuously in a perceived soft manner, then gives them a hiding/clout/good one, when eyes are turned away. The mental anguish the animal endures it's whole life with this inconsistency, is devastating. Get what you need, and get it immediately, then reward just as quickly. I you agitate them into sometimes yes, and sometimes no, they will live not even trusting their own shadow.
Wade
Sometimes rumours are truthful, sometimes not. Does a man's reputation get damaged by anyone wishing to spread ugly rumours. The same goes the other way and poor trainers van be rated high and not know even the barest basics.
Dianne,
That is exactly what I meant when I said "who." And it is rampant in this field, without a bought/family press corps. And it starts with not knowing, just assuming because somebody said.
Wade
So how does M. Gruss fit your definition of a trainer and why do you rate him, personally, so highly?
Steve,
By what he has produced in the past, and the quality of the animals used to produce that.
Wade
Dianne - I agree and I have not been in this businesss for as I long as I have without making sure that I have some foundation for such comments. That foundation includes Aussie circus people who have been in France for some time and an Aussie groom who worked on M. Gruss' show.
Wade - I'm not saying "right here and now when needed" hard is bad. Far from it. And I agree with your assessment of animal's continual apprehension when worked by inconsistently "soft" presenters.
What I'm trying to do is get a handle on the Wade Burck definition of "trainer". Probably a bit harder to do from over here because I don't know you like Dianne, Casey, Margaret [especially Margaret!!!] do. And there are also subtle differences in words used in Australia and America that can lead to misinterpretation. So I keep questioning.
Last word on M. Gruss - no-one can dispute the quality of his horsemanship. It is justifiably world famous.
Steve,
I too would have to validate or disqualify any "ax grinding/agendas" or personality differences of your sources.
Wade Burck
Addendum to Steve,
If you have picked up on, the supposed "gentle" style leading to apprehension/insecurity, you are indeed perceptive, mate. Unfortunately the fans/public are not as perceptive because of no standard on how the animal should appear/act.
Wade
Steve, we all have knowledge of some training that is not ideal. I would suggest that sometimes in all our lives we have "overdone". I just think that it could have been worded gently since it still is second hand info.
I myself went to Paris to see the Gruss show earlier this year. I did so out of interest of super photos. I was a bit disappointed because I did not see what was expected from the photos. I saw a nice show from a talented family and could see where at one time the horses were fabulous. Mr Gruss was very congenial and a great showman but I didn't get to see what I knew was there at one time. So again I wish I could have seen these shows in their hay day but alas this is not the case.
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