Traditional horse training above, and below the new, increasing popular Born Free, Run Bambi Run horse training. Chris, note all use whips to "control" their animals(from what I have been lead to believe whips are only bad if they are used by circus animal trainers). Whips are an "assistant", or a "controlling factor." The horse's below, out of bridles, long lines, and mans legs are also "controlled" by the barrier of a wall. That is an "assistant." The "assistant" of a controlling wall/barrier is not available to a circus liberty trainer. That is why "people" are used to act as the controlling wall/barrier until the animal is comfortable inside a less then 2 foot high 40 foot round performance area. We should ask these folks below to lower the wall to less then 2 foot and show us the same thing? We should ask Allen Pogue to lower his retaining rope from shoulder high to less then 2 foot and then see how many "assistants" are need to keep the horse's inside, until they realize that they like/love/look forward to what they are doing? That Sascha Houcke would need "assistants" to thread the needle with 6,8, or 12 horses lacking a shoulder high barrier, wall or round pen, and Allen Pogue wouldn't need "assistants" other then a whip and round pen threading the needle with 3 horses(one passing through two) is a real no brainer. Sascha Houcke is in collage and Allen Pogue is in middle school. Fact
It is beyond me why someone would let those beautiful, well groomed horses lay down in the wet sand and roll around for the sake of a "feel-good awwww moment?"
Tuesday, September 6, 2011
The Old and the New
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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12 comments:
Agree with you 100% on the comment about the perception/ misbelief that whips are only bad if in the circus-nonsense. I had seen training on Knie and by Sacha, where horses were kept on short lunge lines or leads-EACH horse with their OWN handler being guided through the different maneuvers, while the trainer worked at the center. That's what I was referring to. (I get the idea about the low ring curb-I have yet to figure out how you keep them from running off.) As an amateur with no experience training an act, I do not know how you can break horses away from the herd, then ask them to pass through 2 lines of horses on either side, going in the opposite direction, without people to make sure they all stay in the correct position. This is by no means a criticism, I just assumed that was the way it was done. Once again if anyone knows how to do this, all by oneself and is willing to share, I really do want to know!!
Thanks,
Chris
Apart from being a bit long, I kind of enjoyed the black horses - interesting presentation and change of pace for that type of arena event. One interesting detail I noticed was the ring of light projected onto the arena floor at one point. Seems like it could be a solution for liberty acts wanting to get work at the Equitana shows without having to move a ring curb. I saw a liberty pony act once that was trained to stay on a ring mat without a curb, so staying inside a circle of light might be possible too. What do you think?
Ian
Just when we have been amazed at the wonderful horsemanship you have provided us with in the videos you have brought us the best of the rest. This guy with the freisians and other horses is the best I have ever seen or can even imagine. I am blown away. I thought I had a handle in regard to the training in these various videos and could comprehend in my mind as a trainer of some note how the training and the finished product could be achieved. Not that I could have done it, but the understanding was there. But this guy is "super human" if there is any word for it. The understanding between him and his horses is the ultimate between man and beast. I can not imagine how this could be "topped". Please, if you know more about him [bio, where he is showing, where he is from, anything about him] I would be so pleased. Hands down this is in my estimation the epitame of the equestrian arts. The time spent is not even in my imagination. The horses would get weary with extended practice sessions and how he coped with that. Just the laydown routines, flawlust as they were are beyond my comprehension. The horses have so much spirit in between segments its obvious they are not drugged. The whip is quite understandable but it is obvious that fear is not a factor. I could go on and on, but please enlighten us more about him. Wow. Sincerely, John Herriott
Mr. Herriot,
The man with the freisians is Frederic Pignon. He was one of the co-founders of Cavalia. He published a book about a year or two ago about his philosophy, not really an instructional manual. His wife Magali Delgado and her sister Estelle are dressage riders, who also performed in the show. Their parents own a lusitano breeding farm in France, which to my knowledge is where they are all located today. They left the show and were succeeded by Sylvia Zerbini.
Frederic's younger brother Mathieu also toured with Cavalia for a time. Their brother, Jean Francois, is in the video with the grays. It was Jean Francois who first caught my attention when I saw him in an Arabian horse magazine, when I first got into horses in the late 90's. If you are interested I will try to find you more information.
-Chris, NY
Chris,
With more then 3/4 horses it is virtually impossible to thread the needle without either riders or leaders. With 3, 2 going counter clock wise in pairs and one going through them opposite direction it is very, very easy especially with a round pen which keeps the outside horse from being shoved or pushed out of the ring. Put a lunge line on the second horse and call them into pair's. Cut out the third horse and reverse him. As he approaches the pair in the opposite direction, pull your second horse with the lunge ever so slightly to the inside, allowing a slightly bigger gap for the reverse horse to pass through. That's if there is a problem, but one horse should pass through two no problem.
For a number of horses threading the needle you need the riders or leaders until they understand they are to pass through. The reverse horses tend to shove or bump to get turned around to go back counter clockwise which is the direction they are more comfortable going. People tend to work a horse more to the left then to the right and a horse will fight to go back counterclockwise which is easier for them. On a straight reverse with a number of horses you can just keep chasing them clockwise against the others and it doesn't require the riders or leaders as does the thread the needle where they have to pass through not just run by.
You keep them inside the ring Chris by not driving them out or letting other horses bump/push them out. Assistant's outside and inside the ring aid in that until the horse's become relaxed, trained and seasoned. Again, ASSISTANTS ARE USED BECAUSE A ROUND PEN OR WALLS ARE NOT AVAILABLE. Kept in a round pen or shoulder high rope barrier they should be easily managed by a chimpanzee.
Wade
Ian,
I am sure it runs shorter at times, and longer at times. You will note a lot of ad libing/improvising in act's of this kind. Some times the horse's may make three trips around the arena, sometimes two, oftentimes four or five. As their nose's are in and you are ready to turn them, in a split second they throw their noses to the outside and you miss the cut and try to catch it next time or move to a better position to cut them back. Note the times the whip was banged on a pedestal or thrown sharply in their direction instead of just flopped in their direction. That's when he was transmitting, "hey, Go* D**it, pay attention!!!" At the end they scotched a wheel in three's when the middle horse, which looks like a Lusitano backs out or was pushed out.
The best, bar none at the "clinic game" is Clinton Anderson who taught this same technique for many years before Fredric appeared on the scene. He is well known for his "act" with his mare Mindy which is exactly like this without the "Born Free" running and romping. Much more controlled and precision based.
You nailed it about the ring of light, Ian. I wondered if anyone would note that. When Dianne Olds Rossi and I saw Cavalia a number of years ago the show opened with a shallow pool of water in the middle of the arena. After the Nymph was finished romping with the horse in the water it was drained but a lighter perfectly round area, looked about 38-40 ft circle the size of a circus ring remained. The 4 "free" Lusitano's bolted into the lighter area/ring and did their act. If one would occasionally "step out" of the light area into the darker surface surrounding it, it would quickly jump back in and either look over it's left or right shoulder(depending on where it stepped out) into the wings on the left and right. That's where the "assistants" were standing out of view. They provided what is known as "negative reinforcement." What do I think, Ian? If a dog can be trained to stay in the yard with a shock collar and "invisible fence", why not a horse?
Wade
John Milton,
Hell, you never told me any thing except to "stick that whip up your ass!!!" :) I am glad anytime I can make your day, and put a hitch in your giddyup.
Fredric has pushed the envelope and done something different. That is the only way things develop, improve, and change. It it stay's the "same old, same old" it stagnates.
Regards old hoss to you and your wife,
Wade
Wade,
Thanks so much for the insight, I hope to try that one day if I can get hold of a few more horses. In the meantime I'll been on the lookout for a few chimpanzees/ assistants should the need arise.
-Chris
Wade,
Are you familiar with Guy McLean, another Aussie? I would like to hear your thoughts.
-Chris
Chris,
Not too familiar as I didn't pay much attention. He is more of the same old, same old marketed/promoted in a hillbilly package and attempting to catch a ride on the wave of trendy "Down Under Horsemanship". For practical purpose's most of what he teaches/preaches is useless and has been well covered by Clinton Anderson and others. He is an ingenious, cheap marketing tool for Simon Knight Stock Horses. Instead of having to spend a fortune for an open house to introduce your horses to the public, or a number of years training them for the show circuit, why not have folks pay you by coming to a clinic featuring Simon Knight Stock Horses? There has to be enough morons who will say, "oh my gosh, I just have to buy one of those Simon Knight Stock Horses so I too can teach it to lay down under a tarp. Brilliant, brilliant plan. I also don't think his poetry is as good as American Baxter Black's.
Wade
Wade enjoyed the videos. It was an interesting take on the Piaffe in the Juarez video, I had never seen one walk across the arena instead of in place. I did like the Piaffe in the pillars. The three horse presentation was lovely and the big drill also was special to look at. Lots of practice with nice riders and horses. They certainly have improved since I saw them in the 60's.
Of course the Pignon video is really fun to watch. Having done this with a Arab and a Friesian I could see the similarity. Where he certainly had it up on me was that he could run with the horses and keep them going while I had to be sure my horses were ready to run by themselves. I always wanted to do this with 4 Arabians but never could see where it would be presented more than once or twice a year. Seems like the money end of projects always over ruled my dreams. Pignon is a grand showman and I enjoy his work very much but as you did not like the lay downs because all I could see after that was very dirty horses. Just my preference taking nothing from his ability.
His brother Jean I had never seen but the horses were not as polished as his brother's in either looks or grooming but understand he has a big brother to follow.
I just watched the Lorenzo vid, with the inclusion of the foals. How freaking cool is that? Performance is all about holding the attention of the audience with things they have never seen before. The babies might have been a gimmic, but they are cute as hell. I bet everyone in the crown left with a smile on their faces. I loved it. Not everything has to be highly regimented dressage. In an all-horse programme, there is room for a" ah gee" moment or two.
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