Allen,
What are your thoughts on diving horses? Everyone of the trainers/presenters/owners claimed unequivocally and without a doubt that the horses enjoyed/liked/looked forward to the dive? Do you think they enjoyed/liked/looked forward to jumping off the platform into the water? Did they enjoy/like/look forward to it, with the same glee and delight that your horses look forward to performing, whoops sorry demonstrating? The fellow above even used the example of "displayed a tendency to leap from the bank of a stream into the water(apparently the same thing as from a tower into a lake) as "proof" that Billy enjoyed the sensation of a dive."
Sunday, September 4, 2011
For Allen Pogue--Animals "wanting to."
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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13 comments:
I worked on the Steel Pier with my act many moons ago, alonside the diving horses, and I have my own opinions about those diving horses anyway.
Ian
Just awful. No horse woulde want to do this. They have to go. They have no chooice. John herriott
Yes... The Theron Familly, did tow. with Hamid...they also had the Big Band. and The Sart with us was Pegy Lee. a wonderful singer and a lovely ladie... !!!
John Milton,
It look's like folks are going to have to put their thermal underwear on, as apparently hell has frozen over once again, because I am going to agree with you for the 3rd time in a decade. LOL Kinda.
I don't think a trained animal has a choice in whether it does something or doesn't. It is what it is being asked to do that is either safe or harmful and how it is asked. But you are correct in suggesting "just awful." It is one thing for a noble cavalry mount to jump off a cliff into the water below once, maybe twice in it's life time in a effort to save both it and it's rider from their opponent. It is an entirely different matter for a horse to jump of that cliff into the water below two, three, four times a day for the rest of it's life. One rider years ago at the Pier ended up blind for life due to detached retinas. No way can you convince me it was any good for the horse.
Wade
Mireille,
Rex the Wonder Dog also played the Pier. I never did, but I was working for Hamid in 1976 when he sold the Trenton State Fairgrounds. Does that count for anything? I recall how bad he felt after selling the Pier, to get out from under it then watching Trump take it to the moon. Win some, lose some. :)
Regards mon Cherie,
Wade
Wade, did they make a movie about these horses? I can't remember the name. The female rider went blind in a diving accident (in the movie).
Chris
Wade, if you look to the right side of the pictures - just behing that fence you can see the roof of the shed the horses were kept in. About 10x10 and they never left the shed except to do the jump for the whole season. And, John is correct, they didn't like doing it at all, and I saw numerous times the cosequence for refusing. Of course the shpeel was how they looked forward to the jump because of the carrot they got at the end. One windy day, the granstand was half full and the horse refused to jump. There was no way to get down except for backing down the ramp or jumping. They tried to get the people to leave, but no one budged. The horse stood up there for close to an hour before the crowd finally left and they could go up and push him off. Believe me, there was no carrot waiting that time.
Ian
Ian,
I can always count on you not to serve up a glass of kool-aid. Thank you. For all the magnificence of a properly trained animal, there are some things that are "over the line," and some species that shouldn't be trained to perform at all.
Wade
In 1963 Bobby was at the pier and called me to come up and help with 2 new horses.There was a winch operated elevator we would get them to load in 1st and then we would take them to the upper ramp and get them to come out ot the elevator and into the chute then it was by force they would dive. Then after taht we worked with the rider. Mrs Carver was alwys at the exit from the pool with her carrots for the suckers !! It was as with any training after so many times they would just do it with out being forced. They were always dryed off and then fed. We had 4 horses and they work 2 times a day.
Wade, I haven't been checking out the blog lately, but was hoping to see some more picture of Attayde and the new act.
Ian
Casey,
If you are using "force" to train any animal, you are either doing it wrong, or asking the animal to do the impossible. I can think of only one situation where force would be necessary and that would be in training a pig to fly. I just can't see him flapping his stubbly little legs fast enough without a boot up his ass. :) If rewarding for good behavior produces results, why not instead of disciplining for bad behavior, withhold the reward? Reward for good behavior, withhold reward for bad behavior No need to force anything. Leave the option up to the animal. Do you want the cookie or don't you?
Wade
Ian,
I will try, but as discussed in the past, I have never been big on picture taking why training. As far as I know there are 6 video's in the hands of circus fans spanning a 36 year career. I normally have two people assisting from outside and they are doing exactly that and don't have time for pictures and I have a meat stick in my left hand and a lash and buggy whip in my right hand which makes holding a camera difficult. :) Most people find watching me train bores them to tears, when the anticipated "yahoo, hey rube" doesn't occur. As far as I am concerned, I have the animals whole life and I refuse to rush/push them into anything. Nothing is gained by going any faster then individual animal will accept. As is par for the course, the first day I went in with them there were about a dozen people sitting in the seats, who I suppose could have taken pictures. By the second day there were only 4, and by the third day it was only myself and my assistants in the tent. If those dozen folks had had the patience to stay they would have seen 8 tigers sitting on seats and laying down together a week later. A few years ago I was training horse's in Lake Geneva Wisconsin and had 7 gorgeous Arabians and National Show horse's to get under saddle, as well as train two liberty acts. One of 6 horses and one with a camel, a horse, and a pony. As I started lunging the first horse with a saddle and bit, everyone wanted to know "when are you going to ride her?" To which my standard reply is "when she say's it is time." After 3 weeks of long lining during which someone would occasionally ask, "when are you going to ride her?" I said, "she say's I can tomorrow, would you make sure the outdoor arena is cleared at 8:00AM." Word got around and the next morning there were 10 people standing along the rail, anticipating a rodeo and they wanted to see the "circus guy" ride a buck. I brought Chance's Are out to the arena, long lined her for 5 minutes to make sure she really wanted me to ride her, and she wasn't just saying she did. She was telling the truth and really did want me to ride her, so I unhook the lines, pulled her head around and mounted. We trotted twice around the arena, reversed and canter around three times. We stopped, backed up a couple of steps and walked for 10 minutes flexing left and right. When I got off there were only 3 people standing at the rails. One said, "why didn't she buck?" To which I replied, "because I didn't teach her to. Dog's naturally bark. Dog trainers teach them not to bark. Tigers naturally roar. Tiger trainers teach them not to roar, and horses naturally buck. Horse trainers teach them not to buck."
Wade
I didn't meam training pictures - just some stills of the animals and, of course more of those great animals and equipment shots of the show. I'd like to see an operation like that in person, but pictures are the next best.
Ian
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