Water For Elephants Reviews Are Moderate
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I just returned from seeing the movie. There are many high school drama productions that have surpassed this movie. I was amazed at the apparent low budgetness of it. If it wasn't low budget the best thing about the movie was they sure made it seem like it was. Even if you have the tired old movie The Greatest Show on Earth, do yourself a favor and don't spend your money on Water For Elephants. Instead buy a new copy of The Greatest Show on Earth and watch it for the 100th time. I promise it won't be as disappointing. I don't think the "elephant scenes" are going to be an issue. The whole movie was so bad, the "elephant scenes" weren't even noticed. I wonder why circus movies can't seem to find great consultants like movies of other genre are able to. Reece Witherspoon claimed to have seen her first circus liberty horses in 1930, 6 black Friesian's with beautiful red tassels tied in their manes. Buzzzz....... Highly unlikely "Until the beginning of this century Friesian horses were imported to England for use to pull hearse coaches in London. As early as 1625 Friesian horses were being imported into what later would become the United States of America. The first "official" registered Friesians were imported to the Us in the 1970's." US Friesian Referral. I can only assume because they were able to hire a horse act of 3 Friesians(which are very common today in the circus as liberty horses once the price dropped) and 3 grey's the just assumed Friesians were common as liberty horses in 1930 also.
Friday, April 22, 2011
Courtesy of David Orr
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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31 comments:
I read all the reviews and they had the snideness you'd expect from a reviewer (almost thought I was reading a Showbiz review). But, that's not what's important. If you read the comments posted below one of the reviews, it seems that the majority of people liked it a lot, enough to take the trouble to comment. Like every other aspect of showbusiness, it's much more important what the paying public likes than what the reviewers, circus fans or producers like. I hope this turns out to be a success because it may have the effect of bringing back the some of the popularity the circus used to have.
What do you expect they had a no circus guy as their advisor and another guy from Cirque du Soleil as their choreographer/advisor.
Anonymous One,
Nothing wrong with snideness, if it is factual, as long as there is nothing wrong with grandstanding for nothing. Your pointing out that the comments below "ONE" rewiew is the majority is the grandstanding for nothing I am referring to. The use of the word majority seems to show a desperation and reach of a far left cause. "May have the effect of bringing back some of the popularity the circus used to have!!!!" You are kidding, aren't you? A dirty old tent, with a drunken staff manning it, makes folks want more of the same????? I did ask a number of people leaving the theater what they thought, and they were split 7 boring, and 7 terrible.
Wade
Anonymous Two,
Somebody had a little bit of knowledge, because during hard times when there was no business and the "kinkers" weren't getting paid or eating, staff was living in three tiered bunks and box stalls on hay, the owner/producer still lived large, in a private wagon, with cook prepared food and enjoyed bootleg hootch at the speakeasy, while the "with it and for it folks" watched their friends get "redlighted" in the middle of the night, and sick from bad moonshine while the owner and friends drank champagne. Anybody care to refute the validity of that "aspect of showbusiness"?(to borrow a quote from anonymous one)
Wade
they had many people from circus involved in the movie.
they used Seb Stella as the choreographer because he has a name and is successful.Read his bio
I ask you anonymous who should they have used ????
an unknown mudshow "choreographer"
Rebecca,
You did one gig in Hollywood, don't be acting like some Bette Davis silver screen deal!!!! Who in the hell is Seb Stella, and more importantly what the hell did choreography have to do with this piece of crap!!!!!
It's not Radio City Music Hall and the Rockettes for God's sake!!! It's a dinky little mud show flick with about as much need for choreography as Patton storming Bastion. Realistically a mud show needs a choreographer about as much as a gunfighter need's two broken hands. An unknown mud show "choreographer" would have at least been able to tell them when to step over the elephant shit and mud puddles and not in it.
Damn, all due respect, but this is your circus expert? Hell, I'm offended now. At least I know what circus is:
Sebastien Stella trained intensively in circus techniques in Paris, France. In 1998, he became part of the original cast of the musical hit, "Notre Dame de Paris" and performed in that role all around the world. In 2002, he joined the world-renowned Cirque du Soleil show, “O” in Las Vegas. Since then, Sebastien has been asked to perform in numerous cirque revues, including "De la Guarda", "Ka" and "Le Reve". Sebastien’s credits also include movies, commercials, TV series like Solstrom for Bravo and many other televised appearances throughout the US, Asia, Europe and Canada.
I hope they at least had him lay out the lot or put up arrow's to get some value for what little budget they had.
What, pray in the name God is a "circus technique" anyway? Is that anything like a FREE CHILDS TICKET with one paid adult admission?
What circus expert's were there strictly as technical adviser's to the Director, and not just offering thought's and insight, when they weren't performing their official duties?
Wade
Rebecca-What does a Cirque performer know about US Circus history???? Anyone can write themselves a big bio. Cirque is always against every thing authentic circus and then they turn around and pretend that they invented everything that they have actually stolen from real circus. There are plenty of real US circus historians and or performers that they could have used as an advisor but they listened to this ex cirque guy. No wonder the web tricks looked more like cirque and not like authentic web tricks. At least the author of the original book did her research on US circuses (even though she had never ever saw a circus before she wrote her book.) Your Seb just copied what he was taught by cirque. He also has no film credit to speak of other than that awful circus of the stars ripoff TV show 2 years ago. They didn't need a choreographer for this movie. They needed an advisor. Did Seb choreograph your act in the movie or did you just get up there and do what you do??? An "unknown mudshow" choreographer would have done a better job.
Sincerely
Anonymous Two
they had those circus historian people types..and you ain't going to sucker me into an argument
Yes, the author used a circus fan to advise her on authentic tent shows of the era, and the result - in the book at least (I didn't see the flick)was that it was loaded with every cliche and ledgend that has been told, retold and exaggerated in every fan-written book on the circus.
Like I said, I haven't seen the movie, so don't know what choreography is in it, but I do know that in any movie of every size, every single move and placement is blocked out - nothing is random, so there has to be someone to balance every shot, and I don't know whether having a circus background would have that much bearing unless he/she also have film directing experience.
As far as authentic style goes, have you seen pictures of film of the performer's style of that period? Frankly it was pretty damn stiff and nothing like the style of modern traditional circus. It seems to me that the more Vegas style didn't come about until the 60's. Look at film of an aerialist of the period and today - there were none of the deeply arched backs, strog toe points and fluid arm movements. So, style is something that has evolved - often for the better.
So, should the film have been authentic to the last detail in that regard or present performance closer to what people expect?
Still, I'm not going to fork out the ten bucks to see it, though I'll check it out when it comes to the small screen.
Rebecca-
Yes, you are correct they had Porter Lontz-Underhill as their circus historian/advisor. (I use the word loosely) Porter referred to a risley act as "body juggling."
I am not trying to "sucker" you into an argument. I am just asking you a question.
Did Seb choreograph your act in the movie or did you just get up there and do what you do?
Typically in movies, the 2nd assistant director places the background in scenes with the main actors. Again no choreographer needed unless Seb retaught you and all the other "real" performers how to point your toes and style????
With all due respect Rebecca you asked me a question first and I answered. Again not an argument, just a question?
A choreographer,directors people who stage the actors and acts all see thru the eye of a camera.
The choreographer dealt with movement
other professionals dealt with the historical aspects during the making of the movie
and number 2 you are number 2
one more thing before I tell you to go make nice with yourselves
it is a movie, entertainment, not a documentary
Geeze Rebecca there is no need for name calling....I just asked you a question.
OK so you are saying that this Seb dealt with your "movement" during your iron jaw spin??? He choreographed you?
You should give yourself a little more credit. After seeing the film, it looked to me like the acts did what they do. To me, you looked like you went up there and did what you do as a professional iron jaw performer. Again no need for a choreographer unless he retaught you how to style, point your toes and spin?
I am not trying to bust your balls. I am just saying you need to give yourself the credit you deserve as a performer. I didn't see anything in the film that I would call "choreographed."
Nothing more was done in this film that a second assistant director couldn't have done because the job of a second assistant director is to stage the background in a film.
Answering your original question, yes I think a mud show performer from a real authentic circus family could have done a much better job. But then again I do not think a circus choreographer was needed from what I saw on screen.
What I think was needed was a real circus historian/advisor. Not some guy from Cirque du Soliel who has never worked with animals in his life. And especially not someone who has connections with PETA supporters like the singer PINK.
Sincerely
Anonymous Two
Anonymous,
Who the hell is Porter Lontz-Underhill!!!! I thought Dominic Jando was the only one using that schtick!!! Seb, Port, where in the hell did these people come from? I bet if a Nascar movie came out with Wade Burck as the technical adviser there would be a lot of folks asking "who the hell is this Wade Burck," because after all I watched quite a few Nascar races and actually have a Richard "The King" Petty autographed 8 X 10. If you need any more validation for my Nascar expert credentials, "The King" and I both wear custom Charlie 1 Horse custom hat's!!!!!! Nuff said about what's an expert!!!!
Wade
Rebecca,
"it is a movie, entertainment, not a documentary." That's the only valid thing about the movie, granted. But the majority won't realize that. Hell, you yourself waited for 5 hours for the limo to take you to Taco Bell, before you realized it wasn't coming.
Wade
Anonymous,
"bust your balls!!! Yeah, that's what I'm talking about!!!!!
Wade
Rebecca,
This is mindboggling. How in the world did they manage to find all these French Poof's to act as historians and technical adviser's on a depression era American circus movie????
Porter Lontz Underhill "It's hard to write about the amazing feelings this place brought to me ... pure hearts , magic , beauty , joy
http://www.maspinet.com/
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0519587/
More frighting than that, "Porterlu" is also a member of the WikiProject Circus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Circus
It appears we have been infiltrated by more cell's then just al-Qaeda's. What happened here? Did Jando pull an amoeba, with a binary fission sending French spawn across the the globe to teach, advise and write history for the American Circus imbeciles? Is that what has happened here? Jesus.....
Wade
Honestly Wade not busting balls here....
just trying to understand why Rebecca thinks this guy is so great??...
Rebecca said-
"they used Seb Stella as the choreographer because he has a name and is successful.Read his bio"
When did they start using animals in Cirque? He doesnt look so great to me? He has very few film or circus credits. And he for sure knows nothing about US circus history.
There are sooo many better people they could have used. My first choice would have been not a ex Cirque performer with ties to PETA.
Again my question to Rebecca is, did Seb choreograph your portion in this film?
Other than the "Cirque" styled web tricks, did Seb choreograph the other acts that we saw in this film?
Yes Wade, you are right, "majority won't realize" that.
I am not saying anyone is great.. I am saying some persons have the kind of resume' that makes them more appealing to others..
I bit my tongue, I kept my thoughts to myself because I was not hired to do that job . I didn't see an actual choreography in my scenes..we walked in spec and I actually made up a little movement phrase for myself..a little turn, a little wing action..my spec partner worked his fan..
in the finale we went where we were told to go and I was told to wave only one of my wings..odd (what kind of butterfly would only flap one wing)
during my iron jaw , no one told me what to do except the wonderful first director Lars,
he said get up there and crank one out, WELL not exactly ha ha! some thing like that.
And we circus types those that do arabesques on webs and put our feet in the footloop thought the web was a bit odd.
BUT I was not hired to do the choreography because I do not have a name and that kind of success and did not apply for the job.
oh yes,what makes circus families such great choreographers?????
and number 2 I thought you weren't shelling out 10 bucks to see the flick???
no I believe that was Anonymous One who was not shelling out the ten bucks.
I saw the film.
Thank you for the answer Rebecca I rest my case.
Sincerely Anonymous Two
I don't rest my case. I'll ask my original question "what the hell did choreography have to do with this piece of crap!!!!!" Radio City, Broadway, Super Bowl halftime nonsense, Ringling Bros. and a few circus until 1970 need choreographers. With the exception of Ringling, no circus need's one today, like they don't need a spec rehearsal. Those folks have been walking in front of or behind someone most of their life, then they get to one big date at the end of the year and have to rehearse!!! Give me a break. It is just one moment in the season for a producer to pretend like he is Ken Feld and this is the GSOE. It's simple. You follow the horse, you follow the ponies, you follow the llama, and you follow the elephant. If someone say's "which one is the llama" or "which ones are the ponies," excuse them and have them stay in the dressing rooms, so they don't hurt themselves or anybody else.
Why on their small budget didn't they hire a technical director/historical adviser or somebody who would know that Freisians came after 1970? When the guy was being told to open the door and put the bucket of meat in the cage, I started sinking in my seat, thinking "of shit, don't listen to him." When the lion roared and grabbed his hand I was the only one in the theater who gasped and jumped. A second later I am watching him sit on the ground being mocked with nary a scratch on his hand, thinking "oh what cornball nonsense is this." Someone should have to the director not to do that scene with the bucket of meat being placed in the cage. When he said, "why not?" he should have been told, "because if you have the lion grab his hand, you are going to have to rewrite a one armed veterinarian into the movie, because the lion is not going to give him his hand back. Someone should have been told that you couldn't inflict the 8 in. gashes on an elephant or any animal for that matter, with anything less then a Japanese Katana. No way on your best day, with the most vicious severe ankus/hook in the world could you inflict that kind of damage. Most assuredly not the goofy one they used in the movie. Best you are going to get from that, is a two in. scratch, that's right scratch, as the ankus/hook was not shaped with a correct angle to hold instead of drag. When the director say's "what kind of hook should we use?" he should have been told, "if you want that kind of damage, there is no ankus/hook ever made that will do the job. Write a Katana into the script, or find another way to show the elephant abused into retaliation." When Jakob uses his native tongue for the first time in the movie, it is to console the elephant,leading to the discovery that she didn't understand English. Ridiculous, and if that is what the author wrote someone should have said, "Sara, we know that's the way you wrote it, but that's stupid and no intelligent person is going to believe that, and we have a boat full of corn in this deal already. I have never told a horse "walk-on" as Reece did while leading the grey, That is normally reserved for dressage riders putting on airs, and alluding to their possible European ancestry(kinda like "valtsy" to command a liberty horse to "waltz", "walllllltz" if he is nervous and just learning.)
I'll bet I, or anybody if 60 sec. of instruction, could have got that horse to follow without saying anything.
Wade
actually When Jacob speaks Polish around the elephant he is asking Camel to lift his leg ,that is how the break thru on language is discovered.
I disagree on the need for a choreographer.. someone is needed to organize all movement in the grand spectacle of the film..like the speakeasy dance scene for example and yes even lining us up for spec..
I am thrilled that I did the movie and Hollywood wanted a well known choreographer with the kind of resume hollywood wants.
I will not teach or criticize or comment for another moment on the matter
Alice,
Fine, be that way. But is it okay, if we need a break from reality if we come visit you in Wonderland?
Rebecca,
I realize Jakob was not talking to the elephant. That the "injured, ripped up more dead then alive elephant" responded was just another bag of corn in a already over flowing barrel.
Boy, are you reaching to justify a choreographer in a small budget stinker like this. Speakeasy scenes!!!! Crist Rebecca, you have been to Showfolks enough times that if a couple of dozen intelligent extra's needed to be told how to act like drunken party slobs, you could have told them easy enough. Then you would have been the choreographer, and you could have had a bio and everything.
Wade
I believe the speakeasy dance scene had a different choreographer. There are two choreographers listed in the credits. (though I am still not sure why either were needed)
OK my case just reopened....I really am still not sure what you are talking about Rebecca? You said they wanted "a well known choreographer with the kind of resume hollywood wants."
Well who was that???? This guy Seb doesn't have much of a resume at all?
He has a circus resume that seemed to start in 1998 and a tv/film resume that started 2 years ago? Am I missing something here? I have costumes with more experience than that.
Where is the well known part or the experience part on his resume or bio???
Rebecca - can you please tell me what bio & or resume you are looking at for this Seb Stella?
Because I just looked at his stuff again and it says he started circus in 1998 and it seems like his first TV job was on Celebrity Circus in 2008. Oh yes, and lets not forget the concert tour with PETA activist Pink. Wow! that is some resume!
Is anyone else scratching their heads here?
ok..you two are taxing my mind..
I assume this is what Hollywood wants or is told and does what it is told...
I know nothing about the minds of Hollywood
I know the food is great !!!
the make up people, the hair people, the costume people, the camera people, the driving people and the real directors and producers are lovely
ok perhaps we are using the term choreographer loosely..very loosley
what we be a better word for the jobs the "choreographers" did in the film?
Alvin Ailey, Martha Graham, Bob Fosse, Balanchine, David Parsons, Bill T Jones, Pearl Lang,Molissa Fenley, those were/are choreographers
Anonymous,
That was a brilliant point about "cop shows?" Any idea how many technical adviser's on a cop show telling them what kind of weapon to use, how to hold it, what kind of crouch to take, how to eject an empty speed loader and rack a new speed loader back in the magazine in one fast fluid motion etc. etc., so the actors don't look like "monkey's f**king a football" like the actor jabbing the elephant in the shoulder and telling it in a high squeeky girly voice to "move" What, are you goofing on me? I suppose to you it makes sense why they hired a couple of Solei alumni to proof read this bomb? It was so that they could accurately choreograph inaccuracy?
Rebecca,
Don't start sucking to the crew, it's not becoming of a silver screen idol. You brought up choreographers as examples of experts, nobody else did. And BS on you list of choreographers. Crandall Deil and Bill Bradley were more qualified then any of those folks you mention. This was a circus movie remember? Low budget and dinky, but a circus movie none the less.
Wade
Wade ! don't tell me what to do , those people were very nice!! what are you talking about ? my list is full of some great choreographers !!!
who are your choreographers ???
Rebecca,
It was a circus movie, my list is nobler then then your list, and I even left off Dick Barstow so as not to overwhelm completly. I'll let somebody else tell you who Crandell and Bill were, Circus Girl.
Wade
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