I just heard that two elephants have died, at the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee, both on the same day. The deceased elephants are Bunny and Ned. Ned, you will recall was the male elephant confiscated from Lance Ramos for poor health. A number of folks jumped on the "whack Lance Ramos" bandwagon, where as my issue was that the animal had been taken into the public and exhibited/shown, while being in obviously poor physical shape. I couldn't see how that could have been good for the image of animals in the circus. At the time, I stated that the elephant may have "health issues" that Lance was not responsible for, but I still feel that taking him in to the public was a poor decision. Now it appears that he has died while in the hand's of his "saviors". Let's see if it is investigated and scrutinized as heavily as if it had occurred in a circus or zoo, and the possible initiation of "reverse confiscations" looked into.
Sunday, May 17, 2009
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Wade, I am in total agreement. It seems the Davenport elephants were taken off the road because they were thin, but were not taken from Davenport. Only that he had to fatten them up. But it appears that he was ill and now Buckley can make excuses. Lance gets the critics just like Cuneo, some justified and some not.
ALERT!!!!!!
Everybody dress in thermal jackets quickly. Apparently hell has frozen over, as Col. Herriott and I are in total agreement!!!!!!
Wade
hmmph!is there any justice?what is the point of the exercise? take the elephant and do what? who makes the rules ??
Let's remember that Ramos has already had his exhibitor's license revoked by the USDA and is operating on borrowed time. Also that he was not making efforts to help Ned's situation, whereas Buckley at least tried. It would appear that your bottom line is that it's perfectly ok to have a sick elephant and to do nothing to try to figure out what the problem is or make him better, as long as you keep him out of the public's eye so it doesn't reflect badly on other animals in circuses. That about sum it up?
I only ran this anonymous comment because it so invalidates any good work, that may come of animal welfare, with a biased "make the story fit as I want" opinion. Yes putz, there was a veterinarian attending the elephant, and efforts were being made to find out what his physical issues were. That's documented. I also saw the diet that he was being fed, in a effort to find what was best suited for him. The issue was always his condition in public, and it is what lead to the confiscation, "oh oh, we better do something about this, so we don't look like we have slipped up," so saith the United States Department of Agriculture.
Wade
That's cute, Wade, and name calling is definitely a valid form of debate, for sure. Let's see: I've read the file, you've spoken to the guy who wasn't doing shit, and you think I'm wrong? He was neither feeding the elephant the appropriate AMOUNT of food, nor weighing him at all, despite being ordered to by both the USDA and his own vet. THAT'S documented. Putz.
Putz,
Granted cute, but also charming. Don't you concur. I too read a report. Either there is two of them, or we have interpreted it differently. You recall when the "witch hunt" started, being thrown slap in the middle of one knowingly said, let's wait and see. Don't jump to any this works for me/they suck conclusions.
Wade
If I didn't know better, I would think this "diary" was written by an old time circus/vaudeville publicist:
http://www.elephants.com/Ned/ned_diary.htm
Anonymous, read this article.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/environment/wildlife/article904035.ece
Before slandering and making accusations, why dont you wait for the results of yesterdays necropsy before passing judgement. And why go anonymous? This is an open forum for discussion, nothing to hide.
Nick
Nick,
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about!!!! Bring your references to the table. Now we will be able to see the rebuttal references.
Wade
P.S. By the way, this quote is as much a crock, as the elephant diary: "Kollmann says he has a gift for training animals."
Lol My main purpose for bringing this article up was the quote from the vet, anonymous claims there was no vet (which I have met him at Lance's place before), so I just wanted to clarify that. Everything else is a matter of opinion in the eye of the beholder.
Never said there was no vet; just that Lance wasn't following his or the USDA's instructions.
What report, Wade? What report did you read? Because I read one that described in detail the weight of the food that Ned was supposed to be given vs. the weight of the food that he was ACTUALLY given. And quoted the vet as saying that he thought the problem could not be dealt with unless Lance was taking regular weights of Ned. Which he was not. Not much open to interpretation there.
Yeah,weigh the elephant every day. I assume that the Buckley compound has weighed dailey and of course has taken temperature, stool and urine samples. Who is bullshiting who. The Bucklry compound should be under a complete inspectionj and evaluation from these and other happenings that we are aware of and I am sure incidents that we are not aware of. We with animals "on the road" are under scrutiny and inspection 24-7 without prior notice. Why should Buckley be different. They are still animals in captivity under jurisdiction of the Humane societies and the USDA. How sweet for her it is. Who decides all this crap? I believe that after the hullabaloo of confiscation that there should be a complete report and autopsy by the Vets involved and the USDA to be given to all USDA licensed exhibitors. Without that a class action suit should be brought to the involved parties. Why not? this is getting out of hand. Why should we be under USDA jurisdiction when Dog shows, rodeos, horse shows and races are not. We do not raise animals for slaughter and do not carry Swine Flu, etc. With the federal budget tightening and they cannot afford meat and poultry inspectors, how can they afford in the budget this waste of our taxpayers hard earned money. This program should be eliminated now. I would suggest all exhibitors refuse to pay or participate and lets see how many would be jailed and their animals confiscated. Are you kidding? They would come around in a heart beat. Mr. Ramos as a liscensed exhibitor certainley has an axe to grind. He did get veterinary care and made every effort for the well being of Ned. I know how proud he was in having Ned and it cost considerable money for his care and upkeep. Over the period of time the money received in shows was minute in comparison for the overall expenses and the transportation. I believe it was a labor of love. Lance was a young talented acrobat, but got a love for the animals in the circus and their training. He has always shown respect for me and other respected trainers in the profession. Has he been controversial? yes, just like Cuneo Davenport and others. I don't believe he called on the agents and producers as much as they got in contact with him. I am not hanging any paper but only giving my observations.
Here is how interpret what we see here. The elephant was very skinny. AR would have us believe the owner was "intentionally" under feeding it. Didn't make any sense for the guy to starve the elephant, any more then it made sense to show the elephant in it's condition. I am also wondering where the circus producers liability in this stops and starts. Maybe a law that says if you are caught using an animal in that poor of shape for your show, you have to go a year without using any animals. (some people with animals will think that is a bad idea, because it is one less place to work, not realizing that it is just this situation that has caused the lack of work)After obtaining the elephant with their "story" of evil circus guy starving elephant, the elephant puts on a small amount of weight. They proceed to tell everyone "this elephant was just under fed and mistreated" then he starts losing weight in their care, and begins the patches and alibis. Was their vet investigated? What are his credentials? How good could he be, he lost two elephants the same day? What is the life span of an elephant at their "sanctuary"? All that said, do they have to go back and apologize to the guy they accused of starving the elephant after it dies eating their oatmeal? In my opinion, both people are of the same cloth, and they deserve each other.
Col. Herriott,
You sure as hell are hanging paper. It almost sound's like he is a family member.
Was he not piggy backing on an other license? For what it is worth, and this is of course an unsubstantiated or unverified private email that I received:
Ramos' USDA has been suspended and his animals
arent supposed to work. Soul show scrambling to find cats for illusions to
replace his. Not sure how they are still using his stuff on RBBB, maybe they
bought the act and put it on their license?
Wade
Anonymous,
What report, Anonymous. What report did you read, because the one I read said he had taken every step to find out the elephants issues, and feed it what was necessary.
Wade
Sure, Wade. If by "report" you mean you talked to the guy, and believed every word he told you. Because you've already said you couldn't get the USDA to return your phone calls - so how did they know to provide you with reports, Wade? You are making things up.
The report I read was the USDA notice of confiscation, dated November 8, 2008. I'm sure that they will send you one, too, if you submit a request under the Freedom of Information Act.
Mr. Herriot: he was supposed to weigh the animal monthly - that was ordered by the USDA inspector. 10 months later, not one weight had been taken. Does that strike you as an unreasonable request for an animal who is losing weight? Really?
All licensees are subject to the same inspections. Some regional inspectors are more thorough than others. Public scrutiny is worthless - ask the "expert" circus fans of america, who watched Ned perform. Did any one of them complain about how he looked?
The point is not whether or not Ramos was intentionally starving the elephant. The point is that he wasn't taking steps to find out what was wrong with him, but he WAS continuing to have him travel and perform. Sick animals need to rest. Whether he was starving him or not, he was certainly not doing right by him. Think of a parent whose kid gets sick and the parent won't seek treatment. He didn't make the kid sick, but he's still a neglectful parent, and the kid will be taken away.
And no, Wade, I'm not saying elephants are kids. It's an analogy.
And for all of you that want the Sanctuary to publish their necropsy reports, and to throw the doors open for people to come in and have a look around: when was the last time YOU did that?
Anonymous,
Do you really think I would take the gent's word for anything? You Putz. I didn't realize the report you were referring to was the one available to anyone on request, "after the fact", so let's make it look good. And yes, my underwear has been aired in public. Let's see what color Buckley's are.
Wade
Wade, what is this obsession with underwear?
All USDA reports are available to anyone who asks. Federal law, Wade. So what extra double-secret "report" are YOU talking about, that's so much better than the public one? Because you told us you read a report, but you won't tell us what report that was.
Anonymous,
It is not an obsession. I haven't worn any for 37 years. But something has to be creeping up an activist behind.
I SAW what was being offered to the elephant before he was "requisitioned," and talked to his veterinarian. The only thing the sanctuary offered him, that Ramos didn't was an abandoned Chocolate Lab.
And why wouldn't USDA take my call? Aren't I a private citizen? Are some citizen's more private then others? I just wanted to find out if they had a new "requisition standard" after dealing with a similar situation, after I found out they had just inspected a couple of months earler.
Wade
So when you said you "saw the report" in an earlier post, you were in fact not telling the truth? There was no report that you saw? You talked to the guy, and you now say you spoke with his vet - the vet which, according to the USDA, said that his instructions were not being followed. Perhaps he didn't know that when you spoke with him?
As to why the USDA wouldn't take your call - no idea. Can't help you there. You have to make a FOIA request in writing.
Anonymous,
I didn't "talk" to the guy. The guy holds no validity for me. Didn't you understand that. If the vet was not suited, that should have been brought up at the inspections. That's sop. Oh, you are referring to the USDA "patch report." Individuals are not the issue here, the issue is whether the elephant and his health, well being and longevity were better addressed once "requisitioned." It doesn't appear that way in this case, and it makes some of the past "losses" suspect.
Wade
Wade, you are the one who isn't listening. Did I say the vet was unsuitable? No. I said Ramos wasn't doing what the vet told him to do.
Individuals are not the issue here? What the hell does that even mean? Buckley had 6 months with him, and you can SEE how far gone he was when she got him. Is it just possible that he was too far gone for her to bring him back? That's sure how it looks to me. Even fine care can't cure everything. Particularly when the "everything" has been neglected for years prior.
Again, Anonymous, why not post your name and stop hiding under the anonymous blog? You talk a great deal about what you know about this all and how wrong everyone else is, but you never answered me when I asked your identity. If you are willing to stand up to your facts, back it with your name, we would all like to know your credentials are.
Anonymous,
6 months seems like a pretty big amount of time to cure neglect. Now if the animal was sick that is a different story. I have seen some pretty skinny elephants bounce back in a matter of weeks in the rite hands, going back to my original thoughts, maybe the hands he ended up in were not the rite ones.
Gentleman,
As this issue heats up, and gun powder fills the air, making visually locating a target difficult, let's not loose sight of of an important fact. If the elephant had not been on the road, performing in a circus, chances are we would not be having this discussion today. If someone is sensible, perhaps studies will be done to ascertain if the whole incident doesn't stink of profiling.
Wade
Wade
Of course, Wade, as usual you're a liar. I remeber well when someone posted links to the story when it first broke and you expressed surprise and shock just like everyone else did. NOW, you actually spoke to the vet before the story even broke.
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Agreed
Isn't it true that we will never see a USDA report from Ms Buckley though being that she is not an exhibitor? Doesn't she only deal with Fish and Wildlife?
Anonymous,
I'm rubber and your glue, what you say bounces off me and sticks to you. Do you want to bitch slap each other all day like a couple of gueen's you putz, or do you want to slap leather like a couple of men? You will recall I am for sanctuaries and have advocated Buckley and her mob on many occasions, when they have done something admirable. But they have started to step over the line from nobility and purpose to self serving with an agenda. They have become not much different then Peta or another activist group. Again in the beginning my issue was why USDA with their many inspections was not as concerned with the elephants condition, as they would have been if it had been someplace else. That the move was made "after" public and animal rights outcry and the important fact Col. Herriot and others have raised that the sanctuary is not held to the same USDA standards as any other elephant facility, reeks of a pressured, controlled, biased, government bureaucracy that don't follow the law, but instead attempts to avoid heat from a large private sector.
Wade
Ha that was some other anonymous soul.
Casey, yes - glad you are catching up! The elephant was sick. Ramos did nothing to find out how and why, and therefore he was confiscated. Read the usda regs: if an elephant is suffering and the owner doesn't act to relieve the suffering, the usda has the authority to confiscate. Presumably, that's why it has not happened in other situations. And that's why it HAS in one previous situation.
So Ned was sick, and very far gone, by the time Buckley got him. And there you have a perfectly good explanation for why they could not bring him back. Read the diaries; I think they were pretty forthcoming on what they tried.
Wade: profiling? Are you going back to the "ooh, poor downtrodden circus people" routine? Yes, there was a problem with Ned being on the road performing: he was SICK. You don't work a sick animal. How hard is that to understand?
Anonymous,
Whoa Jack!!!!! Don't be tagging me with that "poor downtrodden circus people" label. That's not at all what I was inferring and you damn well know it. How do you know if something is sick, but you don't know what it is sick from? Appearance/structure don't necessarily mean it isn't capable of performing. Physical disability is a different deal.
I have a 5 year old stallion who just finished banging his way through his first breeding season, and has dropped 40 lbs. pacing his stall, worried that there is an off chance I have missed an open mare out there in the pasture somewhere, and didn't bring her in to meet him. Is he sick? Hell no, just wanting to do a good job with his new responsibility. I have kept him on a high protein diet, through the breeding season and in about two weeks, when he gains back the 40 and then some, I will be trying to grind the fat off the tub of guts, and recondition a show athlete. Appearance will fool you if you don't know what it is.
Wade
FYI Discussion participants,
From an unverified account:
Apparently his license was revoked a few weeks ago. He has since filed an appeal
in court which gives him the right to work until a hearing on the appeal can
take place. He can in theory work up to 16 months on a revoked license if he
stalls them out. He may also win the appeal now with Ned dying at Buckleys and a
necropsy saying he had ulcers in his intestines.
"Let's find out what caused the ulcers. I would suggest old time circus music, but I bet some would suggest I was wrong!!!"
Wade
I believe that the license revocation came from before Ned - it was related to the 2 cats that died several years back. So it is unlikely that anything to do with Ned will change that.
I hear you about the stallion, Wade - but you answered your own question. He'll be overweight again, soon. CHronic ongoing weight loss for over a year would be a very different thing. Did you see those pictures? I do not believe that there is a possible explanation for that other than starved or sick.
Anonymous,
No, I didn't answer any question. I just gave you the opportunity to slip into your colors. "CHronic ongoing weight loss for over a year would be a very different thing" which is why everything from the teeth to the gut would be checked in an effort to find the problem, also addressing metabolism as well as behavior patterns. It is only starvation, if you want it to be. You addressed you.
Wade
I no longer have the faintest idea of what you are talking about. Yes, Wade - everything had to be checked. It was not being checked. That's why the elephant was confiscated. You change your story every minute, and it's gotten old already.
Wade...how many times does it take to ask anonymous...not to be anonymous...i am feeling ignored here lol Attacks everyone, and shows no credentials what so ever. Ever seen an animal past the pages of a text book? Just curious...
Anonymous, call yourself Joe Blow, or something. These Bozos believe that somehow posting a name gives them credibility.
Much as I think Wade is a hopeless alkie who posts most of his replies after nights of cheap vodka (and hence the constant contradictions and back- peddling), you have to give him some credit for being an equal opportunity bitch. He's often the first to slam bad treatment of animals (except, of course if it's someone he's currently sucking up to).
Now, for the fans who believe that any elephant is better off on any circus than at Buckley's, answer this: If maybe, just maybe an elephant is in less-than-desirable conditions at some hypothetical circus (although we KNOW that could NEVER happen)and needed to be relocated, where do YOU propose it be relocated to? Riddle can barely keep balony sandwiches on his own table, nevermind feeding another elephant. And he only needs a few to keep his 'sanctuary' claim going anyway. Do you think there's a zoo out there that wants a scarred up, crippled 50 year old elephant?
Since it is the belief of the good ole timers (sorry Johnny)that all that is needed to properly own and maintain an elephant is a couple of stakes and chains, a hook, a shovel and a waterbucket, can you at least grant that spending your last few years on earth at a facility with free access to hundreds of acres and a spotlessly clean rubber-matted barn is preferable to giving up your last breaths attached to a chain?
Sure, putting up with the whacky broads playing Yanni, chanting Hindi good wishes and offerring aroma therapy would get on anyone's nerves, but if I was an elephant, I'd still take the New-Age mumbo to having my arthritic ass loaded into some rust bucket trailer to be hauled a few thousand miles to do a shrine date. Hell, I've seen elephants in the ring that could give the crippled Shriner kids a run for their money when it comes to sufferring.
And, just a note to Johnny. Acrobats becoming 'animal trainers' when they are too old to acrobat anymore is what acrobats do. It's not for the 'passion for animals'. It's an aternative to wearing the blue greeter vest at Wally World. Cummon now, Johnny, this isn't the Podunk Daily Gazette you're giving an interview to here. Save the 'one of the family' bollocks for the press and CFA convention guest spots. And speaking of "one of the family", did you see the Discovery show about the Chinese who sell their kids? So, I guess there are families who sell, trade and abandon their "family members", so the claims of circus trainers might be valid after all. Then, of course, there's the Manson Family members. Hell, there's at least one Austrian out there who kept a basment load of "family members" locked down for 18 years for his own enjoyment.
So, if I might, I'd like to reverse my position on the family member argument. It is indeed possible to be a circus animal and be 'one of the family'
Gosh, Other Anonymous! That was lovely!!
I think I'll call myself Dominick, since it's so important to have a name that and I have no idea who he is, either!
Other anonymous - I live on the other side of the world so I am in no position to comment on the specifics of this issue.
But I would like to ask you - are you genuinely interested in the welfare of circus elephants? Or is Mr Burck's blog just a platform for you to make an intemperate spray against prominent circus identities while hiding behind your anonymity?
If real elephant welfare is your interest, what do you see as positive steps that could be taken to improve the lives of circus elephants in the USA?
What should be the minimum standards of care applicable to them?
What should be the minimum qualifications for elephant keepers and elephant trainers?
A response from previous anonymous would also be appreciated.
One thing I just can't contain my curiosity about: has there been ANY comment at all about Ned's illness, confiscation and/or premature death from Buckles Woodcock?
Steve,
Excellent, excellent questions that you have posed to Curly and Shemp(I like it better then Dominick). Let's wait for their learned response. I was wondering how long I was going to have to keep baiting this rancid fish on the hook, to get you to take it. You must have been down deep, mate. LOL
Wade
Anonymous,
Why would you expect a response. It is easier to distance your self with silence or anonymity.
Wade
Wade - I've just been circling around like a croc in a theme park!!!
Waiting for someone to say something positive instead of slinging shit.
CMC made some good points as did Mr H - but both were commenting on what has been.
I'd really like to hear something positive from the two anonymouses about what could be in the future.
Can I be Curly?
Wade, don't pretend that you were just trying to get Steve to ask questions. You have your own agenda here - I can never figure out what it is, but normally you simply wouldn't post these comments. So you're obviously trying to stir the pot or bait the hook or whatever expression you prefer - but you even posted my comment about Woodcock, so there is definitely some baiting in some other direction.
As for positive steps, I think "other anonymous" or Shemp, if you prefer, had some good ones. Like, retiring your animal to someplace where they could have space and care instead of turning them over to someone who keeps them chained to a dumpster. That would seem to be a good place to start. But no one is responding to that. So maybe you guys aren't really after a dialogue, just some stuff that you can shoot down more easily than the idea of providing your "family member" who has served you well over the years a decent end of life situation?
I'm pretty sure that I've made my opinion fairly clear in all my posts, including of course the ones that got censored. And believe me, Steve and Wade, minimum qualifications for trainers don't begin to address the problems.
Steve,
Dominick asked for qualifications. Do you think that is a good way to start with your question, or is waffling an acceptable answer.
Now might be a good time, so folks don't get the wrong impression, when was the last time anybody saw me take a drink of anything other then coffee or soda? That seems to be a concern for one of the little people.
Wade
Johnny, the santuary does indeed weigh the elephants that are being treated daily. They have a truck scale installed for that purpose. And, yes, they do do stool and urine samples daily for sick animals, just as would be done in any zoo or veterinary facility.
That one always gives me a little chuckle inside. I probably had more booze at the after show Bar B Qs last week, then Wade has had in the last 10 years. And I am not even a "real" drinker.
Shemp,
If you want to say he is a big fat meanie jerk, no one will ever dispute you, but calling Wade a drunk, makes you look like a buffoon.
Curly,
I won't argue that there isn't a need to retire the elephants to a good place. Should the "good places" then get a free pass and zero scrutiny? Are they above the rules because they aren't working the animal for profit? Cause they SURE THE FU$% are exploiting them for profit! Of the millions of dollars raised to build a barn for Ned in sunny CA, how much will PAWS give back,,or will they patch with we will try to convince the USDA to steal us another mistreated elephant instead. You are correct in that minimum standards of handling isn't even a start, but just as you accuse Wade, you have side stepped the ? only to push your agenda. Who retired an elephant to being chained to a dumpster (25 years and having seen some really bad stuff, never seen an elephant chained to a dumpster) but as you "always" speak in fact, it must be so. I think you should get back to MOE, and Larry, they are plugging holes in the dam with out you.
Shemp said...
Steve, what the hell is a qualification in this case? O.K. here's mine: I am fully qualified to believe that an animal trainer owes the animal that earns him his living a decent retirement and not to work him when he's sick. How's that? Does it take a PHD?
Actually, your opinion is about the LEAST valid, considering your vested interest in the status quo. It's like asking Barak to pass a law against buying black votes. Ain't going to happen.
Don't know how it is in OZ, but over here, just about every improvement in circus animal care came about as a result of regulation and threats by the USDA/APHIS. Before that, few circuses and independant trainers even provided shelter from the elements. Those awnings (for elephants) coming off of semi trucks were non-existent before regulation. Not ONE elephant trainer thought "I think she would like some shade from the 100 degree heat while chained on this parking lot". Or, "I bet she'd be more comfortable if she wasn't knee deep in shit for two days in this truck while we make this jump" Or, "If I pay someone more than the $50 a week that I pay this drunk with anger problems, I might get someone who gives a crap and won't knock the elephants around every time he gets a pint in him".
No Steve, old chap, the circus has proved time and time again that it needs a strong and stern authority to keep it on the straight and narrow.
Shemp
For all you Hans Brick fans seeking qualifications, ask Curly what he thinks of the old boy's work?
Wade
Casey, the Flickr photos that started the whole thing with Ned - the link was posted on this blog when the story first came out - clearly showed him chained to a dumpster in a parking lot in Maine. As to who "retired" him there - well, retired is obviously not the right word but after 17 years of service to Mr. Woodcock he was sold for $1 to the guy who would chain him to that dumpster. So there's your fact, even if you have never seen it (or if you looked at the photos at the time, maybe you DID see it and just forgot. Or it didn't register.)
As to sanctuaries and scrutiny - they should absolutely be subject to it. And they are - not only to USDA inspections but also remember that they have to answer to a much more demanding public than most people who keep elephants. And if those funds start to dry up, it's not like they can rent them out to someone else.
I'd be willing to be anything that no "millions of dollars" were raised to build Ned a barn. On the other hand, are you telling me that bulls AREN"T treated like shit most of the time and that having a place where they can go so that their owners don't have to shoot them when they start getting out of control is a bad thing? And don't tell me that doesn't happen because there's a recent Fish and Wildlife fine that says otherwise.
BINGO!!!!! "they have to answer to a much more demanding public than most people who keep elephants". This is the qualifications, expertize and knowledge that I am wondering about.
Wade
Curly,
Or Shemp,
I can't keep you two straight. Any way, appealing to sexually suppressed house wives who feel sorry for everything from starving Somali kids to the puppy next door that gets kicked when daddy is drunk, is NOT being held to a standard. They are not on display to the public 24/7, they have pre planned open houses for donors several days a year. Unless you work there, you see the same stuff everyone else does, WHAT THEY PUT OUT THERE FOR US TO SEE. As for the dumpster incident, I dont remember the one of the dumpster and I will go back and look again, I saw them on Flickr before Wade posted them and just the sight of the elephant sold me on it being wrong. Chaining an animal to a dumpster is just asinine and very wrong on many levels from the health of the animal to the perception of the public. I also agree there are few places to retire an elephant, and that is a serious issue, it is not fair to provide for someone for years, then be dumped to someone who has no business owning you. I don't agree that sanctuaries are under the same scrutiny, take a trip to TX and visit some Non-profit big cat sanctuaries (Tiger mills with tax incentives) and tell me if you would retire anything to those "sanctuaries" Is "The Elephant Sanctuary" USDA regulated? I don't know have only heard that it is not. Someone here a couple days ago suggested they were regulated only by TN F&G. Now...hurry up....I think Abbott and Costello are warming up their bats for the game.
The Elephant Sanctuary and PAWS are both USDA regulated, but then again so are many of those sanctuaries in Texas you describe. So are many circuses that have no business with animals.
Your stereotypng of the Sanctuary supporters is amusing but I suspect that if you went down the list of donors and did a little research on them you would find that you are completely wrong. Sure there are some whatever - repressed housewives, was it? - but there are all sorts of other people, from all sorts of professions, including elephant keepers, biologists, you-name-it. And a lot of them have great depth of knowledge and a lot of them don't. As to the Sanctuary being open only as much as it wants to be - well, who isn't? Do you think that watching some bedecked elephants prancing around in a ring for 4 minutes from a distance of many yards amounts to full disclosure? Do you think that the Riddles' occasional open house days show things as they are on a normal day? How many zoos have you been to where you can see the elephants outside but never are allowed into the houses? They all feed us what they want us to see, and they all keep secrets. And they should ALL be more open. But most of you guys seem to think that only the Sanctuaries have that obligation.
And the circuses can keep on with the secret crap because otherwise those big, mean AR people will do you harm.
The sanctuary is a USDA aproved facility and follows the same regs as any other, which is one reason the USDA sends elephants there. Though, even a cursory look at what they provide is better than any circus, though I've never seen the Ringling stud farm. Don't know about the staff qualifications, but again I'd say they're equal to those of an aging acrobat or a gazoony. Sure, Buckley's experience initially was with one elephant, but I imagine the subsequent years of dealing with a variety of elephants with all manner of health and temrement issues has made her wiser in that regard. Funny, the old timers are suddenly so concerned about qualifications and facilities when obviously they don't care any other time.
The history Channel is a daily parade of animals tied to stock trailers with fans oohing and ahhing over what wonderful shows they were.
You two knuckle heads should really at least put a letter or number with your anonymity. I couldn't care less who you are (In my mind you are both sexually suppressed housewives recently back from a trip to Uganda where you cured hunger, poverty, lack of doctors, and the plight of the Ubangi people and you figure you are on a roll) I have never advocated the other elephant sanctuary, I feel it is the same idea.
Ethel,(A2)
You are correct about the History Channel photos, and the sentiment by most that it was "the good ol' days" However your reasoning on her being "wiser" because of all the elephants she has had through there is faulty. I have seen many many many Circus people handle numerous animals for years and years and be just as un qualified at the end as they were the first day. Sometimes the worse thing for an animal is to be owned by a person with just enough skill and knowledge to make the animal truly miserable. As far as openness, it should ALL be more open, however, it would seem to me that as a "safe haven for mistreated animals" the door would have to be open all the time. What could they be hiding?
OK anonymouses - and I don't know, or care, which is which or even how many of you are out there.
You're still shirking my question.
You are obviously well versed in what happens in the US circus industry with elephants.
What would you change?
I'm not talking about whether or not there should be retirement sanctuaries - most pros seem to think that they are a good idea if subject to the same scrutiny as other elephant keepers.
I'm talking about what would you do for elephants in the circus NOW.
Curley - "minimum qualifications" DO begin to address the problems. Without some sort of benchmark you've got no chance of weeding out the bad guys.
Similarly, prescribed standards of animal care and training ability can only have a positive impact on the lives of captive elephants - in circuses and zoos.
These are the very sentiments that Wade has been advocating for years but none of you will bite the bullet and start the ball rolling with some positive ideas.
WHY NOT?
PS: I've just read Wade G. Burck said.../Shemp said...
I didn't ask for YOUR qualifications, I asked what qualifications you think that a trainer/keeper of elephants in the circus should have. In other words - what makes a good trainer? Not talking about PhDs or even formal qualifications.
Can you answer that question for me?
And don't assume that I have a vested interest in the status quo, sunshine. My only interest is in getting the best outcomes for the animals that I have spent my life working with. Before during and after their working lives.
Improvements in exotic animal care in this country have come about from a combination of public pressure, animal welfare group pressure, animal rights group pressure, government regulation and increasing knowledge among animal exhibitors themselves. Those improvements are ongoing as our knowledge of our charges needs improves.
They didn't come about by people slinging shit at people over past indiscretions - they came about because people who were fair dinkum about the future of our industry and it's animals sat down together in a spirit of co-operation to chart an achievable path forward.
But someone has to start the process - who is it going to be?
Casey,
Ethel is good, Ethel 1 and 2. So was your point about a safe haven for animals being closed. Maybe some of the problems attributed to "life in the circus" is just a particular animals behavior, usually explained as PTS or "it's their fault.
Wade
Steve,
Very good rebuttal. Sunshine? Ethel Sunshine 1 and Ethel Sunshine 2, given their animal expertize should be able to get the ball rolling. What do you say girls? Lay a little Hans Brick on the table to seal the validation.
Wade
Wade and Casey...sorry to stick my 2 cents in here but Id sure as hell like to know who Shemp and Curly really are and why they feel free to spout their opinions and yet remain anonymous. You'd think from everything they have typed that they were right there in the midst of it all, when I feel quite certain that they weren't. Not that Im the Queen of All, but Ive spoken to Lance and got "his side" of the saga...(as Im sure you 2 animal men have, Wade and Casey)...Id just sure like to have Shemp and Curly qualify their strong opinions with their real identity before I listen to jack squat about what "they" have to say about elephants or their health or well being...thanks for the forum...
Lauren Fairchild
Lauren,
Welcome and I hope you are well. Very good now they are Ethel Sunshine Jack and Ethel Sunshine Squat. No need for the number's.
Wade
Wade,
Im quite well, thanks for asking...you're a sweetie...I know you are glad that I have an opinion and that I am contributing...the topics have gotten way off point here and turned into personal bashing, which I do not agree with. Bottom line is...Ned was sick when Lance had him. Try as he might, Lance couldn't make him well...The place where he went to couldn't make him well either. Couldn't it be that some animals, like some humans are just sickly and can't get well? I don't know too much about elephants and their husbandry, but it seems to me that if it was so dire to remove Ned from Lance's care to put him in a better place, that the place who received him should have been able to get him well? If indeed Ned couldn't recover, doesn't it make it possible that Ned was just sick to begin with? Why did his previous owner "sell" him to Lance in the first place? And, who in the hell do these "anonymous" people think they are to challenge YOU??? You are the foremost authority in the circus animal world today.....'nuff said...
Lauren Fairchild
Ethel Sunshine Jack said.....
Buckley's place is closed to the general public because she says she doesn't believe in exploiting the animals by making them available for entertainment viewing. Agree with that or don't - but why would Ringling's place in Florida be closed to the public? Why aren't you asking that? It's no great mystery why someone who thinks elephants should live their own lives without having to entertain us is closed to the public, but I sure can't come up with a reason that I can't go backstage to watch Ringling's elephants practice. Or a whole bunch of other circus guys who keep their elephants hidden away when they aren't in the ring. What could they be hiding?
ESJ,
Ringling unfortunately has to be concerned with insane activist's. Other then staff, what other whack job's does the Elephant Sanctuary have to be concerned with?
Wade
Lauren,
If you will go to the original post about Ned, you will see that that was the exact point, and I said that the elephant may have had something chronic going on. My issue, and it still is, is that for some reason the animal, in his condition was taken out in the public, and exhibited. That was not a smart thing to do, and has no valid justifiable reason. It is why as EJS stated above, a "closed door" policy is best. It was a terrible thing to do to an already teetering circus animal industry. Doing what ever he wanted to do, hurt folks as far away as Europe. There in lies the straw that has broken this camels back. Should have regulated 50 years ago.
Wade
Wade
Ethel,
Put your romance down...we are going to disagree on this I am sure. I consider the "Sanctuaries Watch EleCam Live" next to the "Donate Here To Help Us Save Another Tortured Circus Elephant" button exploitation at its lowest form. I completely agree that someone should be able to make a living taking care of elephants that cannot or should not perform, and I understand that donations are needed to do that. I also, sadly think that the current Elephant Sanctuary is a necessary evil. But don't for a second kid yourself or any one else by saying it is not exploitation.
ESJ,
Nothing interesting about it. The above part of your whole statement was the only part which did not sound like it came out of an insecure sociopath which is why that was all that was printed. A number of folks receive the "uncut" version, but not the public. I figured why not, if he advocates anonymous, he must be queer for censorship as well. Get used to it with your comments, Pal.
Wade
Oh, Wade - insecure sociopath? I could not be more flattered, you old sweetie.
Wade,
Unity Silverlake here. I have wondered about something here and maybe someone can shed some light on this for me. Lance's vets did not pick up on Ned's ulcers correct? Neither did Buckley's sanctuary vets in the 6 months that he was in that "better place". How can the government think that they can persecute Lance for this when no one else was able to discover what was ultimately the cause for the death of Ned? I know Lance (but I haven't spoken to him about this matter) and I have met you once or twice, as for the anonymous twins I can't say. But I will tell you something, I have worked in both zoos and circuses with elephants and if I was given a choice I would take the circus. I was able to be with my elephants on the road 24/7 and knew what was happening to them. As compared to the zoo where there was no one near them while they were chained in a barn all night and if something went wrong you had to wait until security came by the barn and then hope they noticed and called.
Unity Silverlake
A late late thought. Had Miss Buckley come to us in the field with open arms with respect to the profession that she was hoping to get a retirement sancuary going for over the hill elephants I would assume she would have been favorably received and her place would be an open for the pleasure of all interested and involved and she would have had a great opportunity for corporate benefactors. In stead she chose the cruelty approach and antagonized all. I would suugest that she was a product of Bucky and Smokey and any time spent around them would give her food for thought. I better leave it at that.
Tanglefoot,
That is absolutely not true. What "those in the field" would have said was, "did you hear what that stupid broad wants to do?" or "God damn amateur can't even hold a shovel right, and now she want's to make a retirement home for elephants. If she was ever around a tough SOB like Modoc in the 40's, he would change her mind right quick." No Tanglefoot, it is not an encouraging environment for anyone who choses to break from tradition and actually do something different. She took, wisely so, the easier route.
Wade
i agree with johnny. everyone might not have gone along with her, particularly those who knew the reputation she had with her roller-skating elephant, but i think most responsible animal men would have agreed on the need for a retirement home. in the past when most elephants were show-owned, some owners would have welcomed the opportunity yo let someone else feed, house and take care of them when they were too old to perform, just to save money and give away the responsibility. That is why so many were donated to zoos, i assume. i think the main people to oppose anything like this would have been the ones who oppose everything else-- how much is this gonna cost me?
i've pretty much stayed out of this because (a)i admit i'm not an animal expert and (b) with all the anonymous poppycock, i'm confused about a lot that's been said.
however, if the bottom line is that ned was ill and his vet or the sanctuary vets didn't know what was wrong or how to treat it, why would they expect lance to know?
if ned were that ill, wouldn't it have been obvious in other ways than the weight? the average pet-owner knows enough to take a pet to the vet when the pet is sick -- and follow the vet's advice.
if it were a matter of ned having been starved on purpose -- which i find hard to believe -- it would seem that the sanctuary, with their resources, could have helped. prisoners who had been starved so badly they looked like skeletons were rescued from concentration camps at the end of world war II and with proper care re-gained weight and survived.
i agree ned should not have been forced to perform if he were in bad health, but if he was acting normally other than being underweight, i understand it. does anyone know if there were any problems with him performing? many humans perform when they are very ill. an elephant may not be able to tell you he doesn't feel well, but it seems that his trainers would have noticed something was wrong. elephants have feelings and know how to show them.
one last thing: i personally know of an instance where an elephant was taken out of an act because she was having health problems, i think bursitis. she was left in the animal tent when the other elephants went into the big top to perform. as long as she was "on sick leave," every time the other elephants left, she would pick up her stake and chain, carry them in her mouth, sneak out of the tent and go to the back door. there, alone, she would respond to the music cues and go through her part of the act as well as she could by herself, with no trainer or presenter or props, as if to say i want to do my act, please let me. those watching could tell she was not feeling well and it brought tears to their eyes watching her trying to perform when she needed to be resting. but all the bull men were in the tent; the only way her attempts could have been stopped was physical restraint which teh show did not have resources for, other than locking her into the bull truck.
that in itself proves that old-time owners did NOT always make sick animals perform and also that sometimes animals, like people, try to go on with the show voluntarily when they should not.
the situation with ned was tragic -- but that doesn't mean ramos or anyone else acted with cruely or malice or neglect. there are still many things human doctors don't know and i'm sure many more that vets do not know.
Henry,
It was a grievous and wrong decision to take the elephant on the road when the public could make up any thing it wanted to about the condition. Given the circus setting they could formulate some doozies, and the industry is already teetering terribly.
At on of the three biggest Arabian shows of the year a couple of months ago, the best halter trainer in the industry was excused from competition because a judge noted what he thought was a whip mark on the horses shoulder. He was only reinstated after the 2 other judges and show veterinarian concluded that it was not a whip mark, and was in fact a mark made when the horse, Magnum Psyche accidentally bumped the ring post upon entering the ring. Anything even hints at wrongness or misinterpreted to the public is eliminated. How's that for regulating to protect the rest of the industry.
The story about the elephant pulling it's stake and going to the back door is only jackpots, Henry. No truth to it at all. If you believe it, then you have to accept that they also suffer from post tramatic stress, and the ar version of an animal running to escape the horror's of performing.
Wade
wade - the elephant story i related happened on sells and gray in either 1963 0r 1964, when i was handling press, the elephant was either the beatty anna may, whom everyone agrees was one of the best ever, or bessie, who caame to the corporation when the norma cristiani elephants were bought. bessie was another grand trouper and only died a few years ago. this happened twice daily for about a week until doc martin, our vet, said put her back into the show. i believe dave mullaney was handing elephants at the time. i know chris hudson was elephant empress. and no, this was not something i used as a press release -- i figured since the elephants couln't talk, it would not be a good interview
Henry,
Whom is everybody that "agrees Beatty Cole Anna Mae was the best ever?" Nobody asked me. If they had, I would have said Joyce, unless you are talking Africans, then I would have said Joy. Mike Hackenberger might say Limba or Vance. Gary Johnson would probably go with Tai. I know for a fact Bucky Steele would have said Buke, and even money say's Carol Buckley goes with Tarra.
Wade
Tanglefoot, it is not uncommon for those in the shelter business to develop a bitter attitude towards the people who cause the condition of the animals that come to the shelter. It is quite understandable that after elephant after elephant arrived at the sanctuary with all manner of untreated (or poorly treated) health problems, and coming from a variety of undesirable situations, that Ms. Buckley takes the stance that she does. I spoke to her some years back and she related that, apart from Bucky Steele, she recieved ridicule from other circus people from the off-set. This was long before she began campaigning against the conditions at some zoos and circuses. Yes, she is emarrassed about doing the roller skating act, when she was young, but her efforts since have more than compensated for that gaff.
Mr Burck, you may ridicule the PTSD thing, but surely you, yourself can tell an animal that is whip-shy, or otherwise traumatised by past treatment. I worked at a shelter all throughout college, and it was very easy to distinguish an animal that had been mis-treated from one that hadn't been. I'm sure that with your experience with the variety of animals that you have been in contact with, you can too. So, why do you not think that an elephant's temperament is not affected by it's treatment, good or bad? Do you just label animals as good or bad without considering how it got they way? And, yes, I do understand that animals can be naturally shy or dominant, regardless.
A final question: Assuming that you agree with me on an animals personality being affected by it's handling, do you believe that most animals can overcome their past experiences with a change in handling methods and enviroment, or is there a point that it's temperament is changed irreversably?
Susan Mayo
Bridgeport, CT
wade - i said anna may was one of the best ever. not the best ever. everyone has their favorites. mine was anna may, but i'm not alone. buckles' father thought so much of her that he named the woodcock anna may after her, and i believe it was arkie scott who selected her when they needed an elephant for the lion/tiger/elephant act, which was a very, very rare act at that time. i couldn't expect you to know much about her since she passed away before you entered the business. the group of elephants that beatty accepted as part of his salary when cole folded was overall a very good group. another was sidney, tghe matriarch of the beatty-cole herd until she passed away. when sid was around, there was never any trouble with the beatty elephants like there was later. it seems like the elephants trained in the 30s, the 40s and 50s were generally better trained, better behaved and much more gentle, trust-worthy and people-friendly -than many are today, i can't speak for the other shows, but when bill english was running sells and gray, our elephants were always treated well, were well-fed and cared for, were visited regularly by doc martin and appeared happy and never gave us any trouble.
You know what, Wade? You can go on ignoring and refusing to post comments containing facts, and you can imply that this was all some "doozy" formulated by circus industry haters, but you have no credibility at all when you do so. As to the "teetering" - believe me, this has nothing to do with stuff that people are making up. Time and time again the circus industry has proven itself completely indifferent to the wellbeing of the animals it professes to love like family, and that, my friend, is what is throwing dirt on the grave.
Susan Mayo,
I am assuming that is not a "cute and charming" name just because I knew someone named Mayo long ago. That said, yes any animal can become whip shy, tree shy, and dog shy if they experience a bad experience with any of them. And brave soldiers can become shell shocked after a terrible fire fight. But they don't flinch when they here a door bang shut, but they do flinch at the sound of gunfire. Like wise the whip shy horse doesn't react to a tree or a dog. Just a whip. It they do react violently it is in regards to what they are scared of. Not something else. Fairly easy to over come with proper handling, but not avoiding. The sanctuary's agenda is to blame every thing a naturally bad animal does on it's past and that is false and a self serving convenience.
Wade
Anonymous,
No that you conveniently seem to appreciate credibility, give these fine folks that read and comment on the blog something other then a town and internet provider. Give them your name, as they have requested and is required. Your ramblings have been saved and may be printed at that time. Come on, give us a clinic on credibility.
Wade
Well Wade, some time has now elapsed and Tweedledum and Tweedledummer have not been able to advance to us any of their ideas for improvements for the keeping of circus elephants.
I guess that Lauren must be right - these turkeys know nothing about real elephants. Like many AR activists they sprout what they can dredge from the internet or from FOI requests - conveniently ignoring the fact that so many "reports" are compiled by similarly ignorant people with an agenda.
Casey has his theory about who this couple are, and he may be right.
Personally I think that they are two of the test crew of the Etihad Airbus.
Whoever they are, without validation, their posturing is worthless.
Aw this is a shame, the discussion stopped before I could get back to the internet. As for anonymous asking who I am? I work with cats in the industry, and have worked for several different people. In my experiences in working with Mr. Ramos, I have nothing bad to say about him, the tigers and lions that I have had on the road have always looked good. Wade, how are things going with Adams group?
Dominick Giannino
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