Thomas, before you ask the tiger above is Mousie whom I used in 92-93.
Sunday, May 24, 2009
The Boss-RBBB Circus
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Wade G. Burck
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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25 comments:
Thanks Wade !!
Thomas,
I wish you could have met and thanked him. There was only one. Nothing else has come close to the "complete" horse/elephant/tiger package since. It quit making sense to me when he retired, and when he died it wasn't fun any more. It's why I don't like Western/cowboy movies any more. Roy Rogers will never ride up on Trigger again.
Wade
Wade, You the consumanate horseman. How do you alibi for your hero using that God Awful bridle?
Johnny,
What God awful bit are you talking about? That is a D ring snaffle(similar to an O ring, but different then an Egg Butt), the gentlest, beginning, first stages of a wonderful journey, if done properly, should take about 8 years, of becoming a finished bridle horse. As this Arab gelding was used only to "sit upon" and present the liberty act, and was not used as a dressage/high school horse, it is the best, kindest bit to use. Far superior and less harmful then some of the "circus rigs" combined with a tie down(standing martingale), or a grazing bit on an uncollected, not a clue as to what "go away from pressure" means high headed horse, or the evilest of all, the double bridle in the hands of someone who doesn't realize the curb and the snaffle have two different purposes on an improperly trained horse,and are not used just so you can look like Col. Podhajsky or Nuno Oliveira.
Ring, ring. Class is excused for the day. We will see everyone tomorrow.
Wade
Johnny,
FYI. The horse doesn't appear to be gaping his mouth or lugging on the bit to avoid it(indicating a relaxed, unafraid animal). If that does start to occur a caveson is advisable. Worse case scenario, you may want to add a drop to the caveson if he starts to spit the bit. If he won't hold it on his own, sometimes he has to be made to hold it. Your welcome.
Wade
Clas Excused. What bullshit. You never trained or hardly rode high school. dressage, etc. in your life. Eight year bullshit. When the horse has a full mouth of teeth [4 or 5] is time for a full bridle and to continue on with just a snaffle would be un productive. Now I did not refer to the bit, but I said brdle and that is a lousy bridle to be used in a show and no self respecting High School act would have anything that primitive. Kind of like the rhine stone cowboy missing some of his rhinestones. White bridle and white tack would have made the scene. I saw the show at that time and recall the same thoughts. I do not believe I need any lessons from you. I have ridden and trained in some of the best high school venues in our country with great acclaim. You should be embarassed, but it seems you are happy in your ignorance and Guess I can look forward in the future of you revolutionizing the Arab Horse Bus. You and Baron Von Useless should compare notes Both in wild animal and horse training. I am quite happy in my own skin. Save it for the suckers..
Looks like we can put the thermal jackets away!
Johnny,
I assumed you meant bit. I knew you weren't talking about the lack of a nose band, as I know of a set of liberty harness that had those removed so that the horses mouths gaped, when they leaned on the bit's while stampeding.
Again, GGW was only sitting on an old, easy gelding to run the liberty horse's around. He wasn't riding letter's against Dr. Klimke.
Eight years was in reference to a finished bridle horse, or California Spade Bit Horse which I consider the ultimate in a trained horse.
No where have I ever said I trained a high school horse or dressage horse. No where, ever. I have been asked,(it's the nature of that thing of yours) but have always respectfully declined as I feel I need about 6 more years of study. The 7 isn't adequate for Olympic caliber where my interests lie. I guess it is an "opinion" on how to define the term "trained", in an industry with no standard.
Wade
Guys, I have to agree partly with you both. Yes Johnny, a completely trained High School horse needs to be in a full bridle but I have not seen that done correctly or often in Circus for years in fact the last would have been Papa Smaha. Mostly they are either ducking down or their nose is up and out of the bridle.
Wade stated quite clearly that the horse was used for display only and although I would have preferred to see a noseband to finish the bridle, the main focus was on the liberty act. The horse was not ridden as or presented as a high school horse so as far as I'm concerned the argument is mute. Just my opinion.
I have since my early training always used a full bridle and my wife and daughters are equally accomplished and would not do any other way. I am quite proud of my skill of riding two on two . one on three, all in one all during a session with the horse never knowing that exchange. Also riding in reverse rein in gettinh complete curb when necessary. The horse and rider in question were not somuch as use to work ythe liberty horses but for an entrance down the hippodrome track. Also I note Wade's photos of those gorgeous Arabs shown in halter that the halters were quite exquisite. That says it all. I never saw or heard of Gunther Gebel ever riding a high school routine here in America. He did about everything else, but Wayne Franzen has him beat because I saw Wayne do a balancing-revolving aerial ladder act in his show with a partner, plus his other acts as well and then sold treats in his mini petting zoo on the midway, plus being head mechanic, boss canvasman, etc. But that is another story.
Johnny,
????????????
Wade
I have since my early training always used a full bridle and my wife and daughters are equally accomplished and would not do any other way. I am quite proud of my skill of riding two on two . one on three, all in one all during a session with the horse never knowing that exchange. Also riding in reverse rein in gettinh complete curb when necessary. The horse and rider in question were not somuch as use to work ythe liberty horses but for an entrance down the hippodrome track. Also I note Wade's photos of those gorgeous Arabs shown in halter that the halters were quite exquisite. That says it all. I never saw or heard of Gunther Gebel ever riding a high school routine here in America. He did about everything else, but Wayne Franzen has him beat because I saw Wayne do a balancing-revolving aerial ladder act in his show with a partner, plus his other acts as well and then sold treats in his mini petting zoo on the midway, plus being head mechanic, boss canvasman, etc. But that is another story.
Been around a long time, learned from the best but never heard the term "reverse rein". Guess I am not too old to learn. I will assume you mean ride on the curb instead of the snaffle while riding in a full bridle. If the rider were not proficient in all of these techniques you mentioned then riding in a full bridle would be butchery.
What does Wayne Franzen have to do with the conversation?
Ok....
I have no comment on the horse or the bridle or the horseman, because you couldn't pay me enough to get on some crazy horses back and ride around (That stuff is DANGEROUS)so I know nothing on the subject.
But now that we have drug my "HERO" into this, I will prevent him from receiving any displaced aggression from Wade,,,LOL
Wayne was a great mechanic, great canvasman, did the revolving ladder act with my uncle Curtis for some years, and even walked wire, and ran the concession stand, while booking the route.
That said...
WHAT THE FU%$ does any of that have to do GGW, RBBB, This goofy arab horse, the bridle the goofy horse is wearing, or even the training of animals?!?!?!
In all my years around Wayne I never saw him get on a horses back, I don't think he ever professed himself as a master horse trainer, or even a great animal trainer. He was a great animal trainer in my opinion, but I never heard him say it.
John Herriot,
If you want to get on here and knock the best of the best animal trainer in my life time, and shit in your pants while doing it, fine. But could you leave Wayne out of it, I know for a fact he idolized GGW, and some other heavy weight animal trainers (yes he even raved about your pony drills) Keep in mind GGW's horse is even "wearing" a bridle, and all of Waynes stuff, sometimes even the elephants, worked naked.
I am not surprised that the 90 day wonder has put his two cents worth in and in the words of the great Jimmy Durante, "Everybody is tfor both. I spent time in the ring barn in Venice with GGWrying to get in the act". Mentioning a lousy bridle seems to have started alot of bullshit. Now for the enlightenment of those unaware. I have been a fellow showman and performer and most especially a personal friend of GGW and also personal friend of Wayne Franzen and have the highest regard forpersonally and professionally .I have spent time in the ring barn with Gunther, Hugo, Charly, Axel, Wolfgang among others and got to have a nice relationship with Danielle Suskow and am proud to say that I believe each of them would have regard for me. Am I knocking Gunther? Certainly not. A lousy bridle has nothing to fdo with his marvelous capabilities . My reference to Wayne was made in jest but with great admiration for both. One being RBBB and the other MUDSHOW. and I have served in the trenches on both and know what it is about. One little incident about myself and Gunther of which I have many. While I was on the road with Hanneford I heard that Gunther had heart surgery. At the time I had some chest pain and when I got home Mary Ruth made me go to the Dr. and before the day was up I am in the Hosp. and undergoing heart surgery. Two days later the nurses and aides had me up and walking slow in the hallway. I looked like 100 yrs. old. And who walks up to see me with a nice flower arrangment were Gunther and Seigrid. Kind of nice and just a little of the times spent. Sometimes a person pops off before he knows what he is taking about. I believe I recall Wade and I seated together at the Gunther funeral reception. It was still a lousy bridle and it was Waynes circus and if he didnot use harnes that was up to him, but the GSOE is known for its grand presentaTIONS. aT LEAST IT WAS.I nidentally. For Mr. Cainan I in 1953 Worked alone in the center ring with twelve palomino horses in the Detroit Shrine Circus with the Great cLYDE bEATTY And also was featured with elephants and camels and llamas for Walt Disney in his Mickey Mouse club circus at "Disneyland" in its first year of operation. All of this before my time with Ringling. I don't believe I arrived with shit in my pants. I also worked elephants, rode high school and other things as well in 1944 on the Kelly-Miller Circus and with Tina the elephant pulled the tent up in the morning and down at night, plus my father and I took them to a gas station for water at elkebven A. M. each day for publicitry. In the words of friend Herbie Weber, "Where were You".
To Diane, Certainly it takes an accomplished rider to use a full bridle and the reverse rein would not be something for continuous use. I would only be an answer to an obstinate horse in tossing the head against the bit in a defensive undesirable manner with the suggestion that the rider is still in charge. I have only used it on one horse and it only took one practice. But I always say a trainer or rider should always carry an ace in the hole, but should very rarely ever play the ace. Hop e you understand what I am saying. Note the great shows you are doing. Wonderful. Have not heard much out of Lake Geneva.yours sincerely, Johnny
It is difficult to say that a person is the greatest animal trainer in their lifetime. Probably to say the greatest all around would seem more likely. We would have to choose specifics, such as horses, cats, elephants, bears and then it would be in a personal observation and not that persons judgement overall. There have been hundreds of great trainers in each category, but who is the best of them alk would be ludicrous to identify. In our lifetime would still narrow it to a number of people. In the case of Cainam I can't figure which person you are referring to. Both would be exceptional all around, but would not be the best in specific categories. I do no believe either was on a personal quest as to greatness, but both had the god given talent to do variety in training. They are or were not alone in the field but certainly highly recognized. I recall seeing Wade with Hamid years ago and his presentations with variety animal acts was top drawer for sure.
Madame Col,
Speaking of confused, I am. Did Col. Herriott just describe a half halt, or a rollkur?
Wade
I think Johnny and I would say "power brakes"!
Madame Col.
Thank you. That I understand. Stopping NOW, with little effort or pressure applied. Reverse anything, interprets changing direction to me.
Wade
To Diane, Power brakes. I like that. Says it all. A wonderful "ace in the hole" . i COULD NOT HAVE DESCRIBED IT BETTER. AND it should not be used by anyone just for general training. I rarely mention it and only suggested it as part of full bridle uses. That is why a single curb or snaffle in any advance equetation can even be a hindrance. An overcurbbed horse is way too much as is a biting or pulling on the snaffle. Brings to mind those riders using elbow force but thats another story. Glad we have met on common ground.
Colonel Tanglefoot Herriot,
Thanks for the title. It is catchy, and with your permission I would like to add it to my announcements. Casey McCoy Cainan America's Own 90 Day Wonder. As far as "where were you" I was born in 1976, so, in 1953 I wasn't even a twinkle in my dads eye yet. Still don't see what that has to do with the bridle on the horse, or anything else for that matter, but I hate to leave questions unanswered.
Johnny,
Nobody described anything. Madame Col. just gave it a name, that was easy to understand. Reverse rein/power brakes don't seem like they would be the same thing. Do us the pleasure of describing how you "train" a horse to have power brakes, please.
Wade
The curb can be held between any set of fingers and even between the thumb and the first finger, depending on the need or desire of the rider and the snaffle would be held around the little finger and thru the hand. So the strength of the hand would be firm on the snaffle and lighter on the curb allowing the horse to pull on jerk against the curb. Now in reverse the curb would be around the bottom of the hand thru the hand and the snaffle would then be over the top of the hand and the reins would actually cross in the middle of the hand and allow the horse to be unable to work against either bit in a complete surprise with not much more effort than general. I believe that is why Diane referred to a "Power Brake" because in a car no more push on the brake pedal is necessary than just general braking. Hope all of this makes sense. Why would it not be used alot is because it takes away the flexion necessary for communication between horse and rider. Can the horse rebel? I suppose. But it seems like the horse is pretty well locked in from making undesirable moves. Generally the move begins at bthe head. Forr example watch out if the horse drops its head because it is a sign that very soon it is going to "buck". Is this understandable? Hope so.
Johnny,
Perfectly. Thank you. Some folks have no business with one rein in their hand, and I hope now they will realize they have less business with two. Herta tells of John having to instruct her overnight on how to ride high school. In short order he just called then the top and bottom rein, as it was hard for Herta to grasp "curb" and "snaffle" quickly. It saved their marriage. LOL
Wade
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