Claudia and her daughter Sandry above, at Knie's Kinderzoo in Rapperswil and Alexander below, at Antwerp Zoo in Belgium, pre Amersfoort Zoo.
I know you are a fan of the Swiss Circus Knie, so the following news shoud intrest you. I just recived confirmation on a post of a dutch zoo-forum, that the Belgian based Parc Paradiso will get 1.2 Asian elephants this year, the two Cows are 46 year old Claudy and her 10 year old daughter Sandry, who are currently at KNIE's children's zoo in Rapperswil. The bull Alexander wil join them there, Alex is currently standing at Amersfoort Zoo in the Netherlands. as soon as any new info comes out you wil hear from me
Courtesy of Bjorn Krebbers
Friday, March 13, 2009
Two Knie Elephants going to Parc Paradiso in Belgium
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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14 comments:
Bjorn,
Do you know if the females will be mamage in Free Contact, or PC?
Cheers,
Guillaume
Guillaume,
Don't the female's have some issues, as does the male?
Wade
Wade,
I don't know about the females.
I have seen Alexander in 2005 when he was at Rotterdam (Netherlands). Since he has been moved in different collections as a "good" breeding male. From what I heard about him, he is really calm, not aggressive, and works quite well in PC.
Guillaume
Guillaume,
I too have noted his "movement" over the years. These are just thoughts to ponder: If an animal, regardless of it's species, is good at anything, whether breeding or handling, they tend to stay where they are at, with the exception of needing new blood in a breeding program. The "really good ones" who are offered, only because "we have no room for them", or "we have too many" etc, tend to have some "issues." I note a tusk gone, and one rubbed/wore done quite a bit. In my profession, really calm means they can be handled without PC.
FYI, you note I use the word "issues" often in referencing an animals behavior. 4 years ago when I was put through a "Spanish Inquisition" by the USDA they asked me "how do you intend to deal with the "troubled" elephants?" I told them that was a stupid term for the 4 elephants in question, and I would not answer until they used a suitable word. I offered "issues" and they agreed that was more appropriate and less stereotyping. I said, "so ask me again." When they asked, "how do you intend to deal with the elephants with issues?" I showed them how PC worked and they were satisfied. I had given the male a good bath that morning, and the knowledgeable USDA commended me on being able to trim his nails, as they were "whiter" then their last inspection. I thanked them, but didn't tell them it was 2 more months before I could touch his feet. LOL Sometimes you have to take what is offered, and just dummy up.
Wade
Guillaume,
i am not sure but i think it wil be PC i see what i can find out about that. Wade the only issue i know of the KNIE females is that Sandry apparently can't be sepperated from her mother, they did make an attempt some 4 or 5 years ago but it didn't work.
Bjorn
Bjorn,
Not being able to separate a 10 year old individual from it's mother, would be considered an issue. LOL
Wade
Bjorn,
Thanks.
I heard some weird stuff about it, that's why I am asking.
That will be interesting to see the end of the story.
Guillaume
Wade,
it depends who handled it in FC. Because even working with "calm" animals doesn't mean that they can do it.
The last zoo working in what they call here in France, FC, is going to PC because they don't know how to handle them!
Have you ever heard about a good hands-on zoo in France? If yes, let me know, because I would be really amazed!
For my opinion, in France (like in other countries not far), some of the elephants keepers don't like FC because they don't know IT, and also they can't do IT, so it's very easy to stay behind steel post and say :" I am an elephant trainer", than to go in, and say "let's take this elephant out of his/her enclosure". Just satisfied by putting some hay in hay-nets, and throwing apples on the floor saying "c'est brave! good girl!" ...
Really looking forward the day when a real FC will start in a french zoo.
Guillaume
Guillaume,
I don't think it is far to stereotype by a Nationality. It has a lot to do with what you had to start with. We can't forget a lot of "abuse" came about by the arrogance of "I can work it, and so and so can't."
I really don't disapprove of PC in a zoo setting. Firstly, I don't think you have the people staying with an animal through most of it's life time like you had in the old days. I will be the first to admit, that an animal is better off being dealt with by only one person, instead of an number of people telling it what to do. If folks are going to want day's off, sick days, vacations, convention leaves, etc. etc. a PC environment is not a bad alternative. When we worked at Marineland the land mammal trainers worked every show, 7 days a week. I had a ruptured appendix, finished the last two shows of the day, went to the hospital at 8:00PM, had surgery at 10:00PM and was out by 8:00AM in time to make the first show at 10. The sea mammal trainers, who for all intents and purposes have PC animals had two sets of trainers, first team worked half the shows and left for the day and the second team came in and did the evening shows. They also had day's off, sick days, etc. etc. Unless you are willing or able to say, "ok, I'm here forever", PC is a safer way to go. If you have animals who have been used to FC that's a gift. I just don't think a FC situation worked by a committee is safe for the people or good for the animal.
Wade
Wade,
I agree with you.
In some ways, the "good old days" are unfortunatly over, and I just find it a bit sad.
I worked in France during 3 years in PC, with 5 asian elephants, so I won't piss on it! lol
There is some elephants that you can work FC with, and some who have to be in PC, as you have some keepers you can do FC, and some who can't.
And, yes, for some barns, like you said, PC is a good alternative.
Guillaume
Guillaume,
The wonderful thing about the "good old days" is there are enough great things to make you miss it, and enough bad things to make you thankful it is gone forever.
Wade
Wade & Guillame
i completly forgot to post something here. its the following link to an article in wich Belgium asked Indonesia for two young female elephants for paradiso.
The link is: www.antara.co.id/en/arc/2008/6/23/indonesia-belgium-cooperate-in-elephant-conservation/
Bjorn
Bjorn,
Is Parc Paradiso a municipal zoo, or a private enterprise? I can't find much about it, but from Good Zoo.com I did find this. Are they really prepared/qualified to exhibit/breed elephants? I think it is a good idea if Indonesia turns them down. It would seem there is enough material to work with, with Alexander and the Knie elephants.
Wade
Parc Paradisio. The zoo is one of the most unique I have visited. It resides on the outskirts of the city of Cambron which is historic in it's own right, but the zoo is located behind the walls of a 12th-century Cistercian abbey once attacked by Napoleon's army when the monks that lived there were harboring the enemies of France. The original monks still live there... underground in a special burial site. Many of the ancient walls, buildings, and stone work still stand but the massive entrance gate was shattered by Napoleon's men as punishment. An ancient English whaling ship used from 1870-1914 is moored on the grounds and used for conservation and education as well as to house giraffes. This is why it is unique, you gain a sense of history and education of the animals at the same time.
The park caters to birds, and has an outdoor and indoor aviary that is exceptional. A walk in the tree tops via a roped aerial suspension path allows viewers to get closer to the birds, as well as a ground level path with loose birds nesting and eating. There are over 3000 birds and there is even a penguin area. There is a variety of ungulates, zebras, horses, donkeys, petting zoo, reptiles, giraffes, ect. There is even a fantastic aquarium inside a 19th-century chateau. Along a circular path around a large lake, there are historic points of interest written both in French (the native language) and English. There is also the largest outdoor playground I have ever seen.
European zoos are different than in the United States in that safety regulation are not as stringent. For example no double fences for the animals. I was able to pet a zebra through chain link fence that almost crushed my hand as it leaned against me. While walking through the aviary, was attacked by one of the birds as it was protecting it's nest.
But the advantage of the 'openness' is the closeness you get to the animals. My favorite part of the zoo is the lemur island. The lemurs are loose and you can pet them (BUT DON'T FEED THEM!). They are so used to humans that when you pet them, they act like they don't even realize it. The openness of the zoo is probably why they don't have carnivores here, too dangerous and they need to provide upgrades for public protection. Europe is not as freely litigating as in the U.S. If a lemur bites you for pulling it's tail... well in their mind that was your fault so don't sue me. The playground is another hazard in that kids can rope climb over 20 feet high, but if your kid falls, well that was your fault.
The disappointment I have with the zoo is that there are no mammalian carnivores to be seen only birds of prey. I don't know why but suspect regulations.
Wade
it's as far as i know it's a private zoo,
there elephant exhibit is part of a new developt area in the zoo called Kingdom of Ganesh. They are the first zoo in the world to succesfully rais two African shoebil storks. As for the reason that there are no carnivores, i don't know i never been to this zoo so my gues on that is as good as yours.
Bjorn
P.S
maybe Thomas knows something more about this zoo, as i understand it he is from Belgium and maybe vistid this park once?
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