This is a nice looking sit up, Taba. Twice as difficult as sitting them up on floor plates with 3 foot of space between them. But it negates turning them, and sitting them up the other direction, which is a neat behavior with lioness. Almost ever cage act of old had a laydown. Very, very, very few had a large group sit up.
Courtesy of Jeff Darnell
Saturday, March 14, 2009
Ringling Bros Circus--Greensboro, N. Carolina
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Posts
21 comments:
Wade,
Nowadays you find nothing like this anymore, we have Daniel Raffo and his sit up with 8 tigers and Roger Falck with 6. The others are with floor plates or little situps of 2 or 4 tigers/lions. 20 years ago their were many large sit-ups like Louis Knie, GGW, Baumann, Hawthorn,... Why are they all dissapeared ?
Thomas
Thomas,
Because of the cost of transporting/caring for a large group in proportion to the compensation you would receive. Add to that that the people who were capable of training that are either dead or moved on to other things.
Don't forget with the floor plates you get a great turn around sit up, while eliminating a lame lay down.
Wade
Wade,
The turn is indeed a wild and beautiful to see. But 12 animals next to each other sitting up is also a beautiful sight. Frederic Edelstein haves more as 40 tigers and lions at Cirque Pinder but he only presents 16 of them and does an 6 animal sit up. But he haves the help of Dicky and Wolfgang why don't they train a big sit-up ? Roger Falck will ad some more animals to he's group, I heard from some Zavatta fans. I think 2 tigers. So he will have a 8 animal sit up.
Thomas
Thomas,
A large group of animals, sitting up is beautiful if the animals move quickly into the formation and sit up. If they move slow, the beauty is lost, as the audience grows tired waiting for it to happen, and it becomes nothing.
That Frederic does not have one should illustrate how difficult they are to do right. If it takes to long to get them there, you are better to just do a few, and do it quickly, and move on to the next behavior.
Just because an animal or an act is "trained" does not mean it is a machine, and will work. The presenter has to be skilled enough to take the trained animals, and present them as they were trained. If not, behaviors have to be left out, and the act is presented as well as can be done.
Wade
Wade,
So you had the skill fast because you just started to work at the circus and 4 years later you had a 17 animal big sit up ? Daniel's animals are become up to old and they move slow. How does it come with a roll over the trainer lay down the animals one by one, and then roll them over and with a big sit up he just lay them all fast down and then sit up ?
Thomas
Thomas,
I did not have skills fast. Nobody has skill fast. I started developing an understanding of animal behavior when I was 6 years old. Just like athletes or Generals or anyone else, the great ones took a long time developing, and it did not happen fast or overnight. If you are born in the business, or marry into the business, you are going to have many more opportunities to fail or succeed because there has never been a standard. If you are note born or married into something, and you are given an opportunity, you have one chance to fail or succeed. How you have prepared for that moment, will dictate success or failure. If you are not ready, fast will not work.
You are still looking at video or a live performance like a fan. You are looking at what they do, instead of how they do it, as a trainer would. Of course it will take less time to bring 4 for a roll over, then 8 for a sit up. Half the animals, Thomas. How much distance do the animals have to cover? Where are they being brought from, and where are they going to complete the behavior? The animals are old, is an excuse that many will use, to alibi slow, lethargic animals. If they push them fast, the animal becomes aggressive. Because they don't have the necessary skill, they allow it to go slow, and blame it on old age. The fact is the animals have moved that slow since they were 3 years old. They are just 13 years old today. People will become good at presenting 8 animals, and laying down one at a time. If you suddenly have 16 you can't lay them down one at a time, or it will take twice as long, and now we are back at the slow, boring business again. You have to develop the skill to more 16 in the same amount of time that you move 8. You have to bring/chase 3 or 4 at a time into the lay down, while bringing/chasing another one at the same time. You can not bring one at a time, as you did with a smaller act. If you are capable of rolling one tiger over, now you have to do 4, 6, 8 in the same amount of time. Many people never develop that skill. Many people never become a superbowl MVP. Some never go beyond being a great collage football player. Some never go beyond being a great high school player.
Wade
Wade,
It's a bit difficul to understand. Do you mean everyone needs a long time developing for have the good skills ? But of the thing of the roll over and the sit up I don't understand much can you maybe try to explain it on an other way ?
Really thank you,
Thomas
Thomas,
Nobody becomes good at anything fast. For animals from horses, to elephants, to cats, to falcons if you deal with many individuals it will take a person 7 to 10 years to become good, and 15 to 20 years to become very good. But you don't become very good working with the same animal for 20 years.
In regards to how long it takes, it will take less time to roll 4 tigers over then to sit up 8 on the floor. How fast you move the animals is how fast they will work. If it takes a long to complete a behavior, the public will become bored. If you spend 10 minutes getting a horse ready to do a capriolle when he finally does it and it is over in 2 seconds the public is disappointed. The very good ones get him ready in 10 seconds so the behavior is spectacular and appreciated. The skill comes in moving 20 in the same time that 10 are moved.
Wade
Wade,
Thanks now I understand. When I see the act of Martin or of the one of Frederic then we see an easy example. Martin's lionesses moves fast from behavior to behavior, and the ones of Frederic does 4 minutes to let them sit up all ! Is that a good example for let see who haves skills and who not. I think that Martin haves more skills then Frederic but it's gonna take a long time when Martin will have the same skills as GGW.
Thomas
Thomas,
No, you don't understand. I did not say one person was better then the other. Martin has all lioness, unless they are half dead they will move fast. That is the nature of lioness. They can be chased, and everybody say's it is abuse to chase an animal. If Martin took 2 minutes to lay down and sit up 10 lioness, and Frederic took 5 minutes to lay down and sit up 10 lioness, then I would say Martin knows more. If it is reversed then I would say the opposite.
Martin will only have the same skills as Gunther if he worked with as many animals as Gunther did, in the same environment. And some people can do something for 50 years and still not be very good.
Wade
Wade,
What you say is a bit what I meant, but it was difficult to bring in words. Martin chases 10 lionesses to their floor seats, let them sit up, turn them, sit up, turn and they go to their places. All this he does in 2 minutes. Frederic does takes 3 minutes to let sit up 16 tigers/lions and lions on their seats.
Thomas
Thomas,
Then what you are saying is Frederic is better then Martin, because he move's more cat's then Martin?
Wade
Wade,
Frederic don't moves his cats he let them sit up on their assigned places. And he first let sit up 8 and then the other 8. He haves a sit up on the floor with 3 lionesses and 3 tigers also he haves a carrousel and a lay down with 8 lions/lionesses.
Thomas
Thomas,
It sounds like Frederic has a real nice act. You should understand how difficult it is to sit a large group up on the floor, without floor plates. It is called a wheel, not a carousel. It is only a carousel, if you are playing at the state fair.
Wade
Wade,
He doesn't sit up a big group at the floor, he just let sit up 6 at the floor. The big sit up is when the animals are sitting on their places. But it is a nice act.
Thomas
Thomas,
That is what I meant. If he has 16 and sits 6 up on the floor, that should explain to you how hard it is to sit them all up on the floor, without floor plates.
Wade
Thomas,
I hope you understand what I meant earlier, when I said if it takes you too long to do a behavior it is better to only use part of the animals and do it quick and clean. If the animals run away, and you have to keep starting over or bringing them back the audience get's bored.
Wade
Wade,
I understand now. But you did really fast a sit up with 17 animals, how does it came you can do it and he not ? Do you know Dieter Wichert ?
Thomas
Thomas,
Some people like an Olympic athlete are better then other athletes, because they have developed great skills. It depends on the individual. You can be great at anything you want, if you want it bad enough. As I said, I was not born in the circus, and I did not marry someone who would let me do something. I did not own the animals so that I could do what I wanted. I had one chance, and I had to do it as best I could, and as best I knew how. People learn as they go, and some people are just happy doing something. It does not matter to them, if they get better. I would not get another chance, so I could not just do it the easy way. Plus if you are a man, much more is expected from you. It is why most of the great trainers are men. As you see there are many different things in a circus act, and with no standard or equal competition you can never say who or what is best. It is only an opinion, not a fact. But the more you know and the more you understand, your opinion will be more important and valid then most others.
Wade
Wade,
WOW...What a great correspondence between you and Thomas.
I complimented you a few weeks ago on your insight and contributions to this blog. I have looked for a site like this for some time.
Being a circus fan since 1971/72(especially a fan of cat and animal trainers).
Reading your explanation of why a trainer may choose to go with lesser numbers in a behavior,in an effort to preserve quality and timing as opposed to using greater numbers,which if not properly trained will use up valuable act time, and could possibly just fall apart,gave great insight to just the kinds of things a trainer must consider in the components and presentation of his act.
I was lucky enough to see Ringling when the show had a lion and a tiger act, or a tiger and a leopard act. Each act having 15-20 animals. I was even lucky enough to see the blue unit with Baumann's tiger and Ursula's Polar bears.
I would love to see the acts remain large but as you pointed out the cost of producing/transporting these acts and more importantly the quality of trainers needed to train these acts is just no longer present.
Who is around these days that can pass on the knowledge to others in order to train (let alone present) a 10+ cat situp or a 8 tiger rollover. The seasoned quality wild animal trainer is just as rare or endangered as the marvelous animals they train.
Vincent
Vincent,
Thank you. Thomas is a young man who has a great interest in cage acts. No only an interest but a desire to understand it completely, so he asks very interesting questions.
I initially thought you were our good friend and contributing photographer Vincent Manero from Europe. I think you may be a different Vincent. If so I would appreciate learning more about you. Please email me at wburck3@aol.com I will look forward to hearing from you.
Wade
Post a Comment