Friday, January 16, 2009
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
skip to main |
skip to sidebar
A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
The Circus "NO SPIN ZONE"
Relevent Stops On The Information Highway
- Custom Motorcycle Accessories by Ian
- Bob Cline's Sawdust and Spangles
- Buckles Blog
- Christophe Roullin Circus News
- Gary Robinsons Circus Blog
- Jamie Clubbs Blog
- Marco Kristens Circus Williams
- Ryan Easley's ShowMe Elephants
- Showbiz Daves Blog
- The Bartlett Society
- Thomas Bohners Cage Act History
- World of Dancing Horses
Manure Pile/Post Archive
Consultants
Wade G Burck
Adam R Burck
Eric G Burck
Adam R Burck
Eric G Burck
Posts
16 comments:
Dick, Henry, Warren, and all,
Which act is the better act? The first one or the second one?
Wade
Wade, The large act with the (father, mother, son?)multiple presenters is to me far better. The conbination of skills is impressive, the number of animalis is impressive, the selection of breeds or at least colorations to produce great visuals, and the overall impression is to me exciting, beautiful, and skillful. I was not impressed at all with the guy and the three horses (perhaps there were others later but I was bored to tears by the time he got three horses in the ring) and while it might be quite an accomplishment to achieve that wrok, which I doubt, I cannot believe this act was selected as representing the best in available equine work. I haven't pent a lot of time watching the videos yet to look for the details and such you so often point out that I miss - flared nostrils, laid back ears, harness details, etc. but I would far rather watch the large act. O course those beautiful overhead shots which highlighted the incredible "grand carousel" (for lack of a better term in my vocabulary, were beautiful. To me, also the inclusion of the big and little routine, the liberty work, and the rears and walks into one routine was exciting and again entertaining. The half naked guy with three horses was too artsy for me and I really didn't see any thing that was so great.
Warren
As far as the circus act and the equine show presentation, I haven't spent time with these two videos. But, I think this is a trick question requiring knowledge of training skills beyond mine and the answer is not based upon the presentation as entertainment
Warren
Warren,
This is not a trick question, but for some reason I get the feeling folks are fudging/apprehensive in responding. Of these two acts which one is the more pleasing/correct?
Wade
Addendum to Warren,
Monte Carlo has not been about the best 0 the best since the 80's, that's for the fans consumption. It is what is available at that time of year, like Evansville, Flint, Showfolks, etc. etc. It's why it was moved from Dec to Jan. years ago. Everything was doing the Winter Festivals, and more is available a month later.
Wade
Warren,
Here is a quote from one of the trainers. I think I mentioned it in reference to the feat of the stallions leading the mares in La Cobra: "it was really a challenge the mares around was distracting for the studs"
Wade
Wade, Of the circus liberty act (harnessed) and the big arena presentation, I actually, in this case prefer the second (naked) presentation the best. In the circus act, the opening dressage horse seems to be slobbering (my best guess at the word) quite a bit more than I am used to seeing as if the animal is checked down to much or being held in too tightly in the reins. In the liberty portion, I think I see the same thing. Also, the presenter seems very frantic and agressive in cuing the animals. In the second presentation, thepresenter seems much more relaxed as do the horses. There is considerable distance between the presenter in the large space yet he never seems to need to rush around to get the requested behaviors and responses from his charges. While the first has glitz - lights, fancy music, etc. the second is more pleasing to me. My mind perceives a much better relationship between horse and trainer/presenter. While the final pirouette/hind leg horse in the circus act is impressive, I see a very agressive and nervous presenter rather than someone comfortable with coaching the behavior from the animal.
Warren
OK OK already...
In light of the fact that the blog is "stuck" on videos of horse acts, I am going to throw my one and a half cents in here. Keep in mind I don't ever watch the horse videos unless there is a chance the guy riding the horse is going to stick something in a cow (The horses used for that are the best trained in my humble opinion) The question of which of these acts is better judged by these two videos is a no brainer. The first video is far better then the second. The liberty act in the open rodeo arena just doesn't go good here. Looks like a chaotic stampede the whole time. I am guessing the horses are out of their element but it just doesn't compare to the checked up and controlled horses working in a ring where the trainer can touch them in the video above. I am sure the presenter realized this as well, and probably wished she was in a different venue that didn't have "horsey banners" and more then a couple people who could see through any cute smoke that may have been promoted. I feel for her cause I have been there and once they start running like that, all thats left is picking your alibi.
Warren,
I am stunned. I can't even think of anything to say. Other then the act you perceived as gentle was out of control, which was why they were running, and they did not complete a single behavior. You want a horses mouth wet or slobbering as you stated. A dry mouth often means a clenched jaw. Clenched jaw means tension or scared. If your horse does clench, a rule of thumb is to stick your thumb between his bars and massage his tongue, so he starts "licking" or moving his tongue and starts "slobbering." Slobbering is not stress/scared.
Col. Herriott was pretty brunt to what he sees, as he normally is. Maybe somebody else has something.
Wade
P.S. Warren do you know any of the people on these videos?
Well, I blew it again didn't I? Notice that I said that the horses in the circus liberty act were slobering more than I recall ever seeing in other liberty acts trained by some of the "Greats" who appear and post here. I did not say that it was uncalled for. I also found the franticness and aggressiveness of the circus presenter not in keeping with the elegance of liberty act trainers who seem to be regarded as great trainers and presenters. Point of view in observing these presentations also enters into the result. A one ring circus video from the good seats vs a rodeo arena from the cheap seats.
As you pointed out once before, how many times have I seen a less than stellar cat trainer/presenter run from one side of the arena to the other trying to get a laydown instead of remaining centered and calm and getting the behavior completed? Quite a few. I've also seen it done calmly and easily by some stellar, even by your standards, presenters/trainers.
Wade, my eyesight couldn't tell you who these people are in these small screen videos. Occasionally, I see a close up of someone I recognize; but for the most part, the resolution on my monitor, my eyesight, and the hand held cameras are not conducive to identifying anyone.
As far as behaviors not being completed, As far as the arena act is concerned, perhaps the animals were out of their environment and unaccustomed to being so far away from the presenter - I don't know. Yes, there were some irregular line ups, uneven spacing,but I've seen that from the great as well.
I'll go back and look again and again at those two videos any may change my mind - at least I can do that here. Just don't tell me that that half naked guy doing nothing with three horses is a great liberty act.
Thanks again for the education. I'm looking forward to the next lesson.
Warren
Warren,
You didn't blow anything. But imagine now, why they AR movement knocked the snot out of us, and is still kicking what's left. How many of those folks in the seat's aren't fans? How much do you think they have blown. So I don't have to listen to the "patch" of bad eyesight, mine sucks also, LOL If you click the little TV screen looking thing on the bottom of all you tubes it enlarges it to full screen size. Then I want you to look at the other "arena" liberty act and tell me again about a whip being slung around. You seem to have an issue with whips. Are you also under the assumption that they are used to inflict pain or punishment? It it is cracking it is not hitting any thing, unless you are proficient with it, as neither of these are.
Where did I ever say you shouldn't run around in a cage act? You should move quick and fast if you are doing any thing worthwhile, and want to keep doing it. The only one I ever saw who did not have to move was Charley Baumann. But he was so masterful with a whip, and he used a long lashed one, much like Gerd Semonite he could knock them off their seat, so he didn't have to move to them.
Those cheap seat in a large arena is where most of the American public sits. A horse running around doing nothing is no more entertaining then cats sitting on their seat doing the same nothing.
Wade
Warren,
Have a look at the acts posted below this one and see if you come to the same conclusion about running doing not much unharnessed liberty act and whips, in an expensive seat right up front in a one ring tent.
Wade
The circus act above is Yvette De Rocchi - Bellucci, of circus Embell-Riva, in Italy. The dressage horse died two years ago.
Raffaele,
Where is she working at now or is she. I haven't heard or seen much about her in quite some time.
Wade
Hello Wade,
I'll answer your question, but let me humble myself first and state that I have never trained a liberty act in my life. I was impressed by Yvette De Rocchi - Bellucci's liberty act when I first saw it a few years ago. However, I personally prefer liberty acts with fewer horses, moving at a slower pace--something many people might find boring. I think Sylvia commented on her video on Youtube. As far as I remember, she said the stallion's were distracted by mares and the other horses present, and they were also out of their element--I agree. To me, the act definitely looked better presented in a circus ring, but without experience performing in an open arena, how could you expect more from the horses--I'd like to think they would get better with more practice. I also prefer the circus to a horse show format, so I am already predjudiced. (PS-I don't know Sylvia or Yvette, though it would be great to meet them.)
On the subject of harnessed vs. unharnessed horses, I think it depends on the style of the trainer, and the training the horses received. I have observed MANY trainers drill their horses through the same act day after day in a bitting rig--including many of the greats frequently discussed here. I have also seen a couple of trainers exercise & school their horses naked, and it is just a different method/ style--neither correct nor incorrect. While a beautiful harness is almost always preferable, sometimes it is entertaining to see the horses just being themselves--hopefully without running wild! It just depends on your taste/ interest.
-Chris
Chris,
I moved your comment here, it was more appropriate. I also respect your for offering an opinion as Warren and Henry did. There was one who hasn't had a thought. LOL You aren't humbling yourself either by stating you have not trained a liberty act. You just haven't had an opportunity yet.
I appreciate the information about the Boulonnais and Ardennais horses. I had never heard of them, but in doing a bit of research I think they may be Boulonnais. And are they beauties, known as Marble White Horse's. There is one black stallion in existence, and they are attempting to breed a black line of them. After 100's years of breeding for grey, and eliminating black they now decide they want it in the registry. LOL Go figure.
Yes she did comment on the tape, but she called them "studs" which is slang any more. Every equine show has stallions as well as mares. Ask Col. Olds Rossi, she deals with it daily. That was a an alibi Chris, told to the uninformed. It also would not have been much of an issue if they were checked up. If you like small numbers then you must have noted that there were different numbers of horses in the three tapes. You also noted the surcingle and checks on the steel grey horse in the Ringling video. He was a newer horse, not as mature which is why he was darker and in harness. The thought that it is harder or more difficult to work them free is probably one of the most ridiculous fables spun, since the first "horse whisper" went into a barn and wouldn't let anyone see what he was doing. When they have no checks they are seasoned/experienced. As false as saying it is easier to work any mature animal as opposed to am immature one.
I think if you are going to "claim" unbiased to the two presenters your comment to one of the tapes should be entered, again no offense but it is both sides:
"Wow, Sylvia is one of the greatest liberty horse trainers in America today!! I believe she is being honored this Fall at the Big E Super Circus. Ambra, please tell your mom I am a big fan. I remember when you rode "Mouse" in your first season at Ringling. Does your mom still have her Andalusians too? Is your mom still working in the circus?"
Best Wishes,
Chris
The point of the post was not whether they were good or bad, but how bad they looked out of their element. No they wouldn't get much better in that element unless they were check. If something can work in only on format is it that well trained? The Anderson's who's son Austin(I helped him use a whip when he was about 8, and he does a great whip act today) commented on the tape made a career of working two liberty acts of 6 American Albinos for half a year in the circus and half a year in the rodeo/horse show venue. The used a ring curb in the circus, and a rope fence when they left. But their horses were "dressed" and controlled, and in fact much safer and had less chance of injury. We can't forget that this breathtakingly beautiful animal rides on a "short bus". They can be led to safety from a burning barn, and they will run back in to their death. They need to be guided and controlled for their own safety, with rare, rare exception.
A bitting rig is different from a liberty harness. It has many rings for many check options. It is used to condition a horse physically, and to "bit" him up. FYI for Arabians we use hand made rope checks, that we are able to run over a bit ring on one side, and under a bit ring on the other side. The over locks the poll at the flex you want and the under allows for lateral movement of the nose. A great isometric muscle developer for the neck, and as well as conditioning the body of a haltr horse, teach's the animal to carry himself balanced before you ever mount for the first time. Exercising "naked" is only that, to tire an animal. Working in a bitting harness is developing and conditioning. That worlds away from "exercising." A liberty surcingle normally only has one set of check rings close to the position of a riders hands when mounted.
You know what I noticed the most about Sylvia's horses? Their physical condition and obvious care. Long tails which have been kept up and cared for. Nice manes which have been braided and cared for. The muscling and tone was also most commendable. That has nothing to do with how they are trained or anything except caring and pride in your horseflesh. I don't think I have seen horses look as good as hers in the circus, and I have seen her live a number of time, except for a couple of shows in Europe.
Wade
Post a Comment