In watching it again, I've noted where he stands on the back of the horse--a rider in a bareback act might be a further bit back to get the lift you get when over the rear legs which Lorenzo would not want as much. But he's not as forward as some of the others I've seen. Now, if he'd just add the Courier to his act. I still love this, with the music, lights, and all!
Dick Flint
Baltimore
As Dick is busy lining up dates for Lorenzo, the flying Frenchman he has kindly asked(with a boot up my keester) if I would be gracious enough to post this video. No problem, Dick. It is my pleasure!!!!!
Thursday, January 15, 2009
Elvis had Col. Parker--Lorenzo has Dick Flint
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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Dick and Warren,
Do either of you gentlemen know what a standing martingale is, and what it does to a horses head, and the bit in his mouth?
Wade
Dick, I would hope through all these discussions you would think that anyone who didn't get a thrill out of watching this young man would be dead from the neck down. I have admired him from day one. There is a great difference in what I was trying to say, La Cobra is a display, this ia a full fledged exciting act.
Anonymous,
LOL You shouldn't be so defensive about brain cells being drank into oblivion. You can't be responsible for others, sacks of potatoes or otherwise.
Wade
Well, I had to remind myself just what the martingale is but I've never known of the variations. Though the postings of the other roman riding acts were dark, they all seemed to have a martingale on most if not all their horses. Obviously, I can't tell which type.
I've been coached to regard liberty horse acts with them as less than those that have just a halter. I've seen some liberty horses perform without even a halter but I'm hard-pressed to judge a percentage. Without the halter, of course, you can't have the fancy plumes that can add so much to an act.
So, Wade, and Diane or John Herriott, please enlighten me some more.
And Wade, do you have to compare me to Col. Parker? I hope my ethics are better than his. And while I know nothing of Lorenzo's lifestyle, I hope it is better than the immortal (yea, he still lives in some ways) Elvis. I've lined up years of bookings and I don't want his body to go to waste like Elvis's. LOL
Dick Flint
Baltimore
Dick,
Dick,
Are you saying you think a liberty act without harness is easier to train, or that an act without harness is a more difficult act? Who in the world has coached you on that if that is what I am understanding? Am I to assume they didn't use harness in their liberty act?
What in the world do ethics have to do with agent? LOL
Wade
i never thought i'd be defending either col. parker or agents, but here i am. first of all, parker was NOT an agent. he was a manager -- and one of the best in history. his ethics were not always there, but for the most part, he was more honorable than many others. as far as i know, his word was good; he did what he said he would without adding extras after the deal was set.(even if he did make the kind of deals that left little room for him to make more money) under his guidance, elvis became a mega-star and made an awful lot of money. he was only too happy to sign with parker in the beginning, and even though they had their moments, they worked together for the rest of elvis' life. when presley died, parker could have managed anyone in the entertainment world, except barba streisand, who was one of the few to ever refuse to give him everything he wanted.
agents, on the other hand, usually have no real ties with the artist other than finding them work and making a percentage. overall, their ethics are often questionable. in some states, for example, they are legally forbidden to charge more than 10 percent -- but when they can, they will charge 20 percent and tell you everybody charges it. agents are the stepchild of entertainment -- they have to answer to both the talent and the buyer. they are blamed for everything and get no credit for anything. they are in a no-win position but often they put themselves into it. after all, many times i have heard the old definition of an agent as someone who will sell you his mother and swear she's a virgin. (actually, i guess i'm explaining what an agent does more than defending agents)
dick has done nothing others have not done. many of us like watching lorenzo's videos and think he does a great job. i agree with dick -- i think he would be an asset to any show that brought him to this country.
remember -- gunther gebel-williams was an unknown trainer in the united states and did not become a star until jack ryan and irvin feld teamed up to make him a star.
This guy has to be the greatest of all time in Roman Riding in every respect. I would not like to see one of the horses fall during his whirlwind performance but can assume it has happened. In 1950 in rehearsal in the Chicago Stadium before opening night the sixteen horse Roman hitch slipped on a turn on wet clay and piled up. When we got them untangled all the horses got up but the number two horse from my soeeel thorobred liberty act had a broken shoulder and had to be put down. The rider-driver Jackie Lewis was hospitalized with some fractures and yours truly rode and drove fourteen on opening night until we got the great horsewomen Georgie Sweet to take over. I was very pleased at her arrival.
Incidentally my cousin Gee Gee got alot of fame driving this hitch in previous years on Cole Bros. and in Detroit Shrine.
I would not consider training any liberty horse or pony without harness, bridle surcingle, crouper and checks. After they are trained harness can be optional. Wayne Franzen trained his twelve POAs without harness but never got them into twos, etc. including a wheel routine. It was still a fine act, with waltzs, cut back, etc. but Wayne was one of a kind.
I would not consider training any liberty horse or pony without harness, bridle surcingle, crouper and checks. After they are trained harness can be optional. Wayne Franzen trained his twelve POAs without harness but never got them into twos, etc. including a wheel routine. It was still a fine act, with waltzs, cut back, etc. but Wayne was one of a kind.
I bow to Johnny's remark on training the liberty act with or without bridle as I am not a liberty act trainer. Common sense dictates that "why would you want to try"? After all when the act is trained and polished one can then decide if showing them "free and without dressings" would enhance the presentation and degree of difficulty.
As for the running martingales on the Roman Riding horses, I would say they are a necessity because of the position of the rider. All the cues to the horses are made from the very high "up" position making it very difficult to maintain control. Something has to be there to counteract and modify the "up" action to keep the horses under control.
Now that everybody is thinking, let's go back to the original post and heading "smoke and mirrors." In this video which has been posted in response to the earlier ones it was shot at the Olympia, a unique venue, very very long, conducive to this type of display/act. In the earlier video's, with out that unique venue, in a smaller venue, you noted a lot of problems. It could not work in the circus, and must have they unique venue in order to be successful. As stated, Dianne has a beautiful long line horse, on par with the SRS. As per Johnny's thoughts, not much. Add to it the carousel and bubbles, built by John Zoppe at Lake Geneva horse Park, and it is a breathtaking different display. Take away that smoke an mirror's, and it is a long line act, a thing of beauty with 100's of years of tradition, that Col. Herriott doesn't like.
Dick, where would you book this act, if it needs the Olympia to be successful? Henry, Parker put Elvis in many venues, from the hayride to Vegas. Dick only has a couple of places in the whole world to get his boy into.
Cavallia came up with the most incredible "horse" show venue. A tent that had long narrow straight aways for trick riding, a large oval for quadrilles, roman riding, and a removable ring for bareback and liberty.
Dianne did describe a standing martingale. The head is "tied down" with normally a nose band, to prevent the head tossing that Warren objected to with the Cobra. They are used basically for roping horses/barrel horses. The are illegal in the show ring, and are illegal to even use in English disciplines where jumping is required, because of the severity and chance of injury to the horse. The is a good picture of a "type" of standing martingale in a picture I posted day's ago, of a circus horse that I asked farrier Gary Hill about it's feet. As per Dianne's very good description of one, what is the chance the horse in that picture would be doing any of what she has descried?
When you see somebody coming out with a "unbelievable" bridleless, saddleless, horse you will note it is one, and one only. Not 10 as another trainer would have, but one. An older aged horse normally, and one in a million. The horse is the secret not the training. You may go through 25-50 to find one that is suited.
In the very over rated "no harness" libery acts, or the running free in the arena acts, with rare, rare, exception it is Arabian's that are used. There is a reason for that, and like the "bridleless" horse many years of drilling in harness/containment/control before it is "programed" at what is expected, the exception not the norm. I can show you a hundred trainers with 25 dressage horses in their stable, but the bridleless demonstrator has only one horse, not 25-50. When it is gone it is gone, unless a new one is prepped years in advance.
That is smoke and mirrors, the original thread. The more venues you can play, unfortunately the greater you chance of success.
Wade
Henry,
No disrespect to Irvin Feld or Jack Ryan, but they "teamed" up with a man who could train/work with many different kinds of animals, was an acrobat who could do teeter board also. Do you think Col. Parker could have done the same thing with Carl Perkins that was done with Elvis. The Irvins and the Jacks have to some something unique to promote.
Wade
As Johnny referenced a life ending injury, and there have been a great number of the them with a horses head tied, with this type of act, I wonder what would happen if your horse spooked and ran while you were riding him bridleless? Yes, you can bail off, and hope you don't get injured, but what happens to him, when he hits the fence, or the asphalt, or the traffic?
I can also assume that we feel a lot better about race horses that occasionally, rarely any more, but it does happen, break a leg, and we might not want to reference them as what is bad, to animal rights folks.
Wade
i definitely agree that you have to have something to promote to make it work. particularly in building a star. it's a magic that can't be defined. ggw had it but only a very few people have it. without it you can do nothing. at the same time, all the talent in the world is useless without the person to promote it. i've never seen lorenzo except in these videos, but i think he has it. there may be technical problems but they don't show for most people. i'd like to see him try to adapt to a circus venue. i think one thing that is hurting our business right now is that we have no stars and we need at least one.
Henry,
In an effort to come up with a standard, and address "there are no more good acts" which everyone craps about, "there may be technical problems but they don't show for most people" are you suggesting that we keep "bluffing them". Or was Titos triple pretty obvious to everybody, which then moved to Miquels quad a generation later, which was also pretty obvious to everybody.
Wade
sometimes there are problems that are only seen by the person himself or someone else in that particular field, but the ticket-buying public doesn't notice. each artist should always strive for perfection and the best get upset when they miss but most of the time most people don't notice. for example, if tito caught the triple but it wasn't up to his own standard, he would be upset because he always wanted it perfect -- "good enough" was a phrase not in tito's vocabulary. but if the audience sees a triple, its a triple, perfect or not. that's all i'm saying. a good flyer looks for things only another flyer would notice, or a good animal trainer looks at the points most of of don't know anything about. a perfect from you or johnny or diane regarding a horse act means much more than a perfect from me, who always fell off the ponies at the pony ride. other people maylove a publicity photo, but to me it's awful if it's not just right.
i don't call it bluffing. sometimes you have a job to do and you do it, regardless. often it's still entertaining even if it misses your own standards you set for yourself. you or johnny or diane know enough about an act like lorenzo to set your own standard. all i know is whether or not it is entertaining for me, which it is. does this make any sense?
Henry,
It indeed does, if we are going to quit asking "where are the great acts". What/who is deciding what is great? If the public is deciding, are they getting what they want? When we reference something as art/culture who/what is deciding on what criteria/standard?
Wade
Henry, Acts like Lorenzo or even my big Friesian adapting to the circus is almost impossible. Lorenzo does speed and with 6-7 horses his act would be jerked down to a liberty horse speed plus all the jumps would be brought down to one small nothing jump. It just takes the guts and beauty out of the act. I could not imagine Lorenzo driving 6 horses on the cement floor of an auditorium trying to get into a very small arena. I had liberty horses that ran very fast in a big horse show arena like the one you are seeing Lorenzo in. It was exciting and fast two horses tearing around the arena barreling to me when I called looking as though they would not stop. When I put that same act in the 60 ft circle in Wisconsin, the horses decided not to run so fast, were pretty bored and definitely lost most of what I strived for because as far as they were concerned "where am I running too?" As far as I was concerned I lost the act I built. Big and exciting needs to be in big.
dianne -- it makes a lot of sense when you explain it the way you just did. i never thought about the smaller venue killing the excitement. smoke and mirrors can only do so much; if an act loses it's heart being placed in a smaller setting, all the smoke and mirrors in the world can't save it. thank you for explaining it in a way i can understand.
wade, i agree completely on a need for standards. that's the only way we will elevate our acts at all -- even to the level they were at 40 years ago. in many ways, our business has taken giant steps forward, but in many ways we've also gone backwards.
An "individual" in Massachusetts, wants to know if anybody is still hung over, what ever that means.
Wade
Henry,
So what is exciting Lorenzo, the Flying Frenchman in the first clip in a small venue, George, the Galloping Gadjo in a small dark venue, or Lorenzo in a ideal venue?
What liberty act was better above, the young lady with them harnessed up or the young lady with them unharnessed?
Wade
i couldn't see enough of george to like it or not like it -- obviously lorenzo is better in the larger venue. i prefer the lady with all the harnesses -- it seems to be a better environment for the act; it fills the space -- in the larger space, the act loses something. i am starting to recognize the difference the right venue can make. i guess it's true -- we are never too old to learn something new.
Henry,
Those are intangibles that folks never consider, when they are hanging paper for a friend. When they talk about one Babe Ruth being a better hitter the Willy Mays, the fact that Willy May played in a longer season, is a very valid "intangible". As is astro turf vs. real turf. GGW doing 7 different animal act per show is a valid intangible to Clyde Beatty doing one.
Wade
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