Wednesday, December 3, 2008
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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29 comments:
Wade - are these pics recent? Like - what year?
Wade - I'm not a tiger trainer and certainly do not have Mr Campolongo's credentials so can you explain for me please the reason why the fourth tiger is just lying on the floor?
It is not something that we would usually allow lions to do.
Steve,
Credentials are purely speculative, you know that. There has never been a standard that qualifies. Again is the person who trains foals to halter lead qualified? Qualified for what? To train the National Champion Reining cow horse? Is the person who trail rides Old Blue qualified? Qualified for what? To put two year olds under saddle? No, to answer your question, I have only seen that done by one person before. And it was because of a lack of qualification and frustration. But they silvered up in Monte Carlo, what do I know. And to answer your cynical question, I have seen a lot the past 10 years I never thought I would see, and because of pride in my profession never wanted to see.
Wade
Thanks mate - you've answered my question.
The last bloke in this country who allowed a cat [lion] to lounge about like that had the "credentials" to do so because his daddy owned the circus.
When the lion quite literally chewed his ass it was my fault because I broke the cat and sold it to them. Go figure that one! I never broke the cat to sit anywhere except on his side seat.
PS; I thought that the newspaper headline at the time was hilarious ...... "LION TRAINER MAULED IN THE RING"...... but not many people shared my sick sense of humour!
PPS: Are the Campolongo pics recent?
Steve,
Photos are from 2008. The person I was referencing was qualified by working as an assistant to the trainer. Only deal was when they split, and they were writing resumes and immigration "facts" neglected to mention that they were married to the trainer at the time and were keeping expenses down, not really receiving "on the job/apprenticeship training."
I don't think 10 people working a group of animals necessary qualifies any of them for much of any thing. Just my opinion based on other animal training professions.
Wade
Addendum to Steve,
Some day ask LAD about the "hex" a bear trainer from Holland, who came to Hawthorn as a "house trainer for tigers" claimed I put on all the tigers before I left in 1991. And some assumed he was correct, because after all "wasn't he qualified." The bloke you mentioned, may have had a girl friend who thought he was the greatest. I am sure you are more then aware of what some folks have used to qualify themselves.
Wade
The cats are fairly young--if I remember correctly, they were about 3 or 4 years old. The female tiger lying down required some "extra coaxing" to do much of anything. I've never seen tiger training up close before--I admit I pretty much know NOTHING about it, but what I do know is that John treated the animals fairly, with respect, both in public and behind the scenes in the couple of days I spent at the Game Farm. In my sole opinion, I believe that the public would have misconstrued this firm coaxing as a form of abuse, so she did a few basic behaviors and was left to her diva self. I feel this way because in one community on Long Island elephants have been banned from performing, due to public and political pressures. Just my own thoughts.
-Chris
Chris,
1 or 2 is fairly young. 3 and 4 is a performer. This isn't what it should be, and I will leave it at that. Take the time to learn it right, don't be swayed or influenced.
Wade
Addendum to Chris,
Does the elephant ban on Long Island have anything to do with elephants stampeding a few years ago and causing massive damage to a number of business's as well as damage to public and personal property? Just a thought.
Wade
Mr Burck.
In regards to the tiger that is laying in the front of the cage, this is a 2 year old golden tabby tiger named mariah, who is also not the sharpest of tigers, who is experiencing heat for the first time in her life. This tiger actually would slide on her back to get to this position in the cage. Throughout the show, the girl is completely lost, who doesn't have a clue what she is doing during the show due to this condition. It was almost an accomplishment to get her out of the back cages to the arena and vice versa in her condition. Steve, an answer to your question you posed, considering your experience working with cats: One, if you don't know the situation, how could you think of asking someone what happened in this situation, when they weren't there, there could have been 101 reasons why that tiger was there, the main reason being what I have explained, she was completely out of her mind in season. I dont have the time and knowledge to give tiger training lessons over the internet. To shorten the whole subject of everyone's interest, at this point she wasn't a very well trained tiger and was completely out of her mind in heat. I did however get her up and out of the cages to practice and exercise everyday, which is what i do with all of my animals when possible. In regards to the tiger in the laydown who is not sitting up, this tiger is a one year old standard female who was just conditioned to lay down. She had not been taught to sit up at the time of this photograph. We can write a book but there seems to be enough experts in the business. I find myself just trying to make a living, doing what I enjoy doing most. The only reason I am replying to this is I never read any of the feedback, but have had two people call me this evening and I needed the laugh, knowing that even though I don't write and communicate in all of these circus blogs, that someone still talks about my name regardless. In regards, thanks for you inquisition, it boosts my ego, considering I have only been doing this a couple of weeks now. My assistant Nick was one of the people who brought this to my attention and helped me put this together, since I am not computer savy. And to all my true friends, best wishes and a happy holiday season. Best Regards, John Campolongo & Nick Giannino
John and Nick,
I don't know why you would call me Mr. Burck, I asked you to call me Wade when I met you in New Jersey.
Steve asked me a question, and I answered it to the best of my ability. No, I have never seen a cat lie on the floor, regardless of the age, with the exception of the incident I mentioned. I have also be blessed or maybe lucky as I have never had a tiger "crazy in heat" that it did not do what was requested of it, again regardless of the age. I has one named Kashmir who used to rub her self on my foot, but when she was told to stop, and come here on her hind legs she did. But I have had a couple of people tell me the same thing about a "crazy in heat" animal, one person had them 3 different times when I visited, and one had a couple that came "crazy in heat" at least 4 times a week.
That's all I can address on the subject, knock on wood, as I say I have been lucky.
John, when you get a chance throw this you man a bone. His name is Thomas Bohnner and he is 14 years old from Belgium. His site is Circusforlive He is Campolongo crazy and he would "pop a nut" if you said hello.
Regards,
Wade
Mr Campolongo - thank you for your reply. As the pics were posted on Wade's blog, as I am not a tiger trainer and as I have no way of contacting you personally, it seemed the right thing to ask the nearest pro for their opinion. And no-one can argue with Wade Burck's credentials to give an opinion on tigers!
I too am fortunate that I have never had to cope with a situation where one of my cats has been "completely out of her mind in heat" so I have never had to end up with the situation depicted in these photos. Just lucky I guess! I have had lions crazy for a lioness in heat but that's a different story!!!
Thank you again for taking the trouble to make this explanation. We are all of us just trying to make a living and some of us are very lucky to be doing what we like best. I don't know that your ego needs much of a boost. I live in Australia and I can assure you that your name is known to serious animal people in this country.
As for circus blogs - well most of them aren't worth the time but this one is seriously devoted to the welfare of the animals that we all work with, the development of standards for our profession and the continuation of the very noble art of animal training so that our kids and grandkids can have the opportunity to work with animals like we can and so that future generations of the public can make informed opinions about the level of training/trainers that they are privileged to be able to see in action.
In this part of the world, where we don't have exposure to the world's best trainers, a serious blog like this is a useful tool to swap ideas and pick people's brains. That way we get to learn from you guys. I've seen pics and videos of you working Jim's lions in France but I've never been able to "talk" to you like this. And to be able to "talk" to people like Wade and Casey and actually see their efforts on the internet - well, to an old fart like me that's almost like magic!
None of us always agree with everything that Wade says but you sure as hell can't argue with his passion, his dedication to the welfare of all animals, his huge knowledge of the genealogy of white tigers particularly and his obsession for the safe and succesful future of this wonderful world that we call circus.
I am pleased that we were able to give you the laugh that you needed and wish you well in your new venture and all the best for you and yours during the coming festive season.
Cheers.
Steve Robinson
John,
I'm glad you replied to this post to give an accurate account, as I have no real knowledge of cat training or management. Everyone needs to remember that these are just random snapshots of a single performance. They shouldn't use them to infer the credentials of the trainer, the cats, or their training. It should also be noted that this was only their second time at the farm. I'm glad you clarified the situation.
I'm sorry Wade, I don't know the whole situation behind the ban, but the Town of Southhampton banned the Cole Bros. elephants, and they were not allowed to perform. If I remember correctly, they were not allowed to enter the town with the circus.
Happy Holidays,
Chris
Chris,
My answer to Steve was also accurate. I had only seen it occur with one individual before. There qualifications were questioned not Johns. I will repeat for the last time, in 34 years I have seen it occur or be permitted once. Don't take my or Steve's word for it. Ask others and base what you hear on their qualifications.
Every female animal of any species comes into heat!!!!!! It is no big deal it is the nature of the beast.
I like you Chris and I want you to understand something. What has happened to this business is that well meaning people, like yourself repeat something they have been told as the gospel, just because of who told them. Like in the case of the elephant ban. There is a real, legitimate reason for the various problems that we have faced. And that is 34 years ass deep in it telling you that. That largest problem was defending friends who were causing the problems. That's a fact Chris. When some one says something and it is not responded to, people assume it is because it is true. Look at all the things on this blog and many other blogs that are left open and never responded to. Do we assume they are correct if someone doesn't have the courage to challenge/respond to it? Yet when we think a friend has been slighted we come running. I am worried that you would thank John, yet you didn't thank Steve and I? The answer you want to hear may not be the correct one, and you seem to want to learn about animal training, and have admitted to being limited.
That is why I mentioned the elephants. If I hadn't you would have continued thinking the was wrong, not knowing the reason for it. You don't want to base your animal training goals on some stupid misguided thought that you can't do something because the people might disapprove. If you are doing it right Chris, they will not disapprove, as there will not be anything to disapprove of. The excuse for poor acts being what the people approve of and what they don't is very wrong and incorrect.
Now I am going to ask you to name me one type of training or trick that you think the public will disapprove of, and I'll try to tell you how you may be doing it wrong. Then they will approve.
Wade
Hello,
I'm that crazy campolongo man.
Can you sent me a mail Mr. Campolongo?
thomas@bohner.be
and for wade thanks for replying my mail!
Thomas
Hello,
I'm that crazy campolongo man.
Thomas,
I did not say you were crazy, I said you were "crazy for." It's a different deal. Don't forget things get goofy in the translation some times.
I told you we would contact him some way. I am going to have to lure Johnny Herriott out in a few day's. I'm getting worried about him. He does follow the blogs so it won't be as hard as the one's who don't.
Wade
WOW
I somehow missed all the chatter on this thread. I probably shouldn't but I will throw two cents on something here.
Chris,
"treated the animals fairly, with respect, both in public and behind the scenes" but if at some point behind the scenes there is "extra coaxing" to get a behavior in practice, then the animal is allowed to not do anything because the "public" misunderstand the "coaxing" it then becomes unfair. The animal has no way of understanding why sometimes it has to obey, and other times it does not. This will cause unneeded confusion and more "extra coaxing". How fair is that? I am not knocking anyone, I am just trying to explain how chuffing at and petting cats during the show, then trying to fix it when no one around, is sometimes confused with gentle and fair.
Wade and Steve,
I apologize to you both if you think I was insulting you or not appreciating your concern. What I meant by the word "accurate" (I guess a poor choice) was that this picture was taken by a fan (me) with limited knowledge. I meant that I was glad that John gave his account of the tigers behavior and age, because what I said was not accurate--the tigers were younger than I believed, and she was in heat, not being a brat. We are getting the story "from the horse's mouth," rather than someone who only spent an afternoon or two with John and the cats. In no way did I mean to slight anyone.
Wade--in terms of the elephant ban, I had no connection to any circus people in 1999, and I never spoke with anyone about this before. The only thing I knew was that the news said the animals could not perform. Thanks for presenting both sides of the story for me, and trying to make me more educated. :)
Happy Holidays to all,
Chris
Chris,
I didn't perceive any slight or insult at all. I can't speak for Steve. For me the explanation of being young and in heat, still doesn't float, and I will repeat that is only the second time in 34 years that I have seen an animal laying on the floor anywhere for what ever reason. If it had been young and being a brat, I would have said, I have seen that a hundred times only not refusing to do what they were trained to do, except the once I have referenced. Assuming you were inexperience, and wanting to learn, I pointed out sometimes the horse's mouth moos. LOL Inexperienced folks may not realize it, because they don't know what a a horse sounds like.
Don't down play and afternoon or two. I know a great many who think they now got the "gaff" from what they "perceive" as the greatest after less time the that. Many can do it after one show/training session and a soda.
You did nothing wrong but offer an opinion based on your knowledge. That is all any of us did. I could tell you I missed being a member of the 500 home run hitter's fraternity by one home run. For what you know about it, you might just believe me. But I am sure not going to tell that to Harmon Killebrew. He would look at me funny.
No harm done what so ever.
Wade
Chris - I've been married twice and I've got three kids and six grandkids - how the hell could you insult me??????LOL. No offence taken at all.
As I don't know anything about you but guess that you have a real interest in training [which is why you spent that much time with Mr Campolongo] may I suggest that you read and analyse what Casey has just said, digest it with what Wade has said and then judge it against what you have seen so far.
And don't ever give up watching and asking!
PS: Chris - where on earth did you get a name like Freiheitsdressur?????
Wade - "the horses mouth moos"?????
Have you got that copyrighted or can I use it over here. LOL
Steve,
By all means. It's show business. Be the originator if you'd like. Requested to a command performance by head's of European Royalty if necessary. And thank you for asking, as I am sure Robert Perry asked Lou Jacobs before he painted that famous face on the side's of his trucks. LOL
Wade
Chris,
Nothing you can think of that the public might perceive as cruel, and that's why it's not done? Most everything has something it can't do because of the public perception, surly you must have at least one.
Regards,
Wade
Steve,
Freiheitsdressur translates to free dressage (liberty horses) in German, which is by far my favorite act, although my first love was the tigers.
-Chris
Wade,
Sorry for the Mr. Burck title, I have always felt it as a show of respect, which by all means it is. Thank you for clarifying and I relayed John the message for Thomas, he said I could feel free to send him his e mail, he just is not very good with a computer as of yet, Sharon helps him with most of the e mails. How is Adam doing? Hope all is coming together well and wish him the best with his wedding.
Nick
Nick,
A couple of years ago, I had "Great Britain's Greatest Female Wild Animal Trainer" now "America's Greatest" I was told this summer, puff up her store boughts, look me square in the eye and demand, "do you know who I am?" I was stunned, as I had never heard that before from anyone. I would have expected it from Gunther, Charley, or Gerd but never from her. After that titles of respect lost their meaning for me. But you may address me as Your Majesty, if you would like. LOL Just kidding John Cooper. Don't get your knickers in a knot.(Don't forget, they call Elvis the KING and he died in a doniker.)
Adam is doing well, thank you. Give "ham bone" my email address, wburck3@aol.com and tell him to use the one good finger, and show him where send is at. I'd like t haar from him, and yourself also.
Wade
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