Wednesday, December 3, 2008
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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12 comments:
Devil's Advocate. Would it be"sad" if you knew it was trained "humanely?" Is it axiomatically "worse" than a dog riding a pony? I always assume the worst with this kind of thing out of China, but does that make it a bad trick? Is a demeaning trick always a bad trick because it's demeaning?
Ben,
Yes it would still be sad if it was trained humanely, because of the time and breath spent, claiming all tricks are natural behaviors. If they were sitting up, or doing something besides hanging on to horses that are physically to small, possibly not. A very slight possibly. But no, there is nothing skilled about it.
Wade
Wade - what's "sad"?
Nobody's claiming natural behaviours are they?
The bears aren't muzzled or even tied on, the ponies aren't lunged, they're not sweating or wild-eyed, no flaring nostrils, no scars or chewed ears that I can see.
Sure the gear is as rough as guts and some basic grooming of the ponies would help but I've seen "sadder" pony riding monkeys and dogs.
Steve,
Come on. Everybody claims "natural behavior." From equating an elephant standing on it's hind legs to reach branches occasionally to 40 years of walking on the hind legs, cat's jumping over a fallen tree chasing prey to jumping over a hurdle of fire. I don't expect these folks to be different, as it does sound good. And we can only assume at what the horse's and bears lives have been or will be. I have seen enough "cheese" in 34 years to be suspicious of just about everything.
Wade
Again, I assume this came out of someplace like China and I don't want to think about the gimmicks and mechanics that went into training it -- or maybe even the ponies they went through. And it isn't by any stretch a natural behavior. But like Steve, I don't know that the end result is any worse than any mixed animal riding/racing act. And I noticed that the bears weren't muzzled and reckon the fact that they aren't gnawing on the ponies necks suggests some comfort with the trick. This is pretty demeaning if you want to see bears behaving like bears, but it did get me thinking that if you start out with bottle raised cubs putting it together over a couple years wouldn't be rocket science.
Did you ever see that movie about Tim Treadwell? I think it was called Grizzly Man. Treadwell was "lover" who conned a lot of people with his "research" over the dozen years he lived with grizzlies before they killed him. Maybe it's me, but watching him talking baby talk to wild bears as he petted them was somehow infinitely more demeaning and a greater violation of naturalistic behavior than anything any idiot could dream of training for an animal park show in Asia.
You're going to be a cynical old man one day!!!!!!!!
Come on - get happy! You've got a wedding coming up, Thanksgivings just been, Santa will be here soon - what more do you want?
Go with the visible evidence with the bears and the ponies. Yep, there might be more behind the scenes that we don't know about but until we do ...... trust a little.
And everything doesn't have to be "natural behaviours" and all the bullshit that we use to try to convince people that that's all it is.
We're TRAINERS so we're allowed to teach animals to do things that AREN'T natural! That's what we do.
Over here, the big thing is that every thing has to be education or conservation based. I argue that ENTERTAINMENT is just as worthy.
Steve,
I am very happy. Do my jokes on the blog not show that? I have been nothing but an animal trainer all my life. Never wanted to be anything else. Never wanted to be a performer in the circus, never wanted to own/produce/manage/get over the road a circus. Just wanted to train animals, and would perform it need be.
I think you mistake my disappointment in what and why it happened, for cynicism. I have a hard time saying/doing something I don't believe in. The training I believe in, who and how it has been conducted is the disappointment.
Wade
Ben,
Why would they need to be muzzled, they are not much more of a carnivore then a monkey. Why are leash bears muzzled, and cage bears not. Yet there was an assumption on the Cat Dancers post that the public wasn't a consideration.
I watched 10 minutes of that special you mention and didn't need to see any more. Didn't need to hear that he had been killed, I just assumed. Like Born Free, Christian the Lion, etc. etc. they weren't valid after 10 or 15 minutes. You know I dig horses, particularly Arabians. I have attempted to watch the Black Stallion a couple of dozen times over the years, and just shut it off half way's through, it is so cheesy. I dig animals so much, because I accept them for what they are. They make me become them and accept their emotions, instead of them becoming me and accepting my emotions. And beings I am a human I can get what I need emotionally and intellectually from another human, and not pretend that an animal is giving me those needs.
Wade
P.S. Steve, The Man from Snowy River movie was a different deal. That was authentic "animal." That bloody jackaroo drove that mob of Brumbies across the Northern Territory's and rode the hell out of the Queensland mountains, and got them safely in the pens. Shot the value of an Australian Stock Saddle up about 80%. Every wanna be horseman in America had to have one. LOL
Wade
Steve,
I do respect you. You are the first I have heard say this is BS but I am saying it any way. Most have said it so long, to the uninformed that they actually believe it. Worse is if somebody actually thinks the person quoting it is qualified, they repeat it as gospel. Then the AR uses those "human emotions" as ammunition to shut them down and they whine. I still love the term "soft target" that our British associate quoted. I think a "soft target" is somebody who had their BS validated, and now their wondering what they can come up with next, to justify they associates they should have helped eliminate years ago. It is an industry not a personal family or friend industry.
WAde
The horses do look pretty thin to be carrying a bear. Obviously they have yet to be blessed by the miracle of soap and water in Asia. But I don't think it is bad to have a bear ride a horse because it isn't natural. I also don't think tiger leap frog, or hind leg walks (other then the very rare fight, which is not the same) happen in "nature". Loading an animal into a trailer and hauling it down the freeway at 65 mph (sorry Steve I can't do the km/mph exchange) can't be natural. I also doubt in third world countries in Asia they use the "it's natural for the animal" card. Which may be the one area of animal training they surpass the rest of the world. It has always seemed to me the ones looking for "natural" behaviors, couldn't train any thing more complicated then sitting on a seat or running around the ring really really fast. As far as I can tell the only things "natural" to a tiger are killing ,eating, sleeping, drinking, having sex (with other tigers not lions) and in captivity we eliminate one of those rite off the back (killing) and often another (sex) the to biggest motivators in a wild cats life. No.....I am going to concede there is little "natural" about any captive animals life.
I will also add...
I think some time ago Wade and I discussed the act similar to this that was/is? working in the US. And I will also concede after the third or fourth time they go around the ring hanging on the horse, it starts to be boring. It should be a trick in a bear act, as apposed to being the act.
I was guessing its entertainment value was that you could wager on the outcome.
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