Relaxed/waiting, different from eyes closed to mentally escape discomfort
Nothing is staged. 4 different reactions in as many seconds. The faster the behavior the faster you have to read/comprehend the reactions. Some are capable of small act's/slow behaviors, some are capable of large acts/fast behaviors. How fast do you read, how fast do you comprehend correctly what you are reading, with consistency, dictates success or failure. How fast a cutting reads, comprehends, with consistency dictates success or failure(cow getting past him). You can't teach comprehension or consistency to either people or animals. That comes with that thing called experience/time. But you can teach them to read. Their success depends on their comprehension/consistency.
Hear it comes, possibly discomfort, possibly not, what is going to happen, suspicion
Note the down turned mouth, holding breath. At that moment Alex, and trainers who do group, fast behaviors read the reactions fast and correctly and "froze" that motion, and just as quick "unfroze" motion, and got it moving. Think piaffe, passage, whoa, canter. What just occurred in a 4 second time frame is much more difficult then two hind leg walk, roll over with 4 animals, a mirrored ball, a dozen animals jumping through fire, or a kiss 0 death. The public doesn't know that, but an equally skilled trainer does. This is an incredible behavior. Different species an absolute non factor. This behavior of freezing one moving 2 freeing 3 is more difficult logistically then moving two for a hind leg walk, or moving 8 for a fire jump. Surpassed only by the 3 hind leg tigers. Freezing one, moving two. freezing 3, moving one, freezing two. The corbette froze two moved one.
Sunday, December 7, 2008
For Ben Trumble
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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15 comments:
Very good Wade.
Made me think about the people I've tried to teach "a feel to" with the horses. You can't teach a feel, they have to learn it themselves but this just made me think that they can't learn a feel until they know how to perceive the animals actions and reactions. Just like you said, that comes with experience and/or wet saddle pads..
I also never really put thought into how quickly it all happens. But yes, you can be working on a bow,the horse is ready to go down, and seconds later you are looking at front legs above your head..
Dangerous sure but knowing in advance that can happen takes the fear out of it....that and knowing how to react..
Jody,
Have you ever noted a pony in a pasture with a a bunch of bigger horses, control them and their emotions? Because of his size disadvantage his reactions have to be quicker, and more decisive. It is not cruel it is taking control of the situation, but what most people don't recognize is when they have the situation in control. There in lies the abuse, because they let their emotions get out of control. A trainer has to control his/her emotions as well as control the emotions of the trainee by reading/feeling. Some excel, and some get by. And it does not matter who your friends are, or how attractive you are.
Wade
Wade
Jody,
Madame Col. taught me what a half halt was, and when to apply it and when to remove it. The comprehension and reaction is my responsibility to learn/discover, to make it work or to make it fail is on me.
Wade
There you go. All the difference in the world when there's actual context! A cropped picture of just the facial expression don't give you that same context.
When dinosaurs ruled the earth -- and I was still in school -- I implanted radio transmitters into the body cavities of a particular kind of rattlesnake so that I could watch their behaviors in the very early spring and late autumn during mating. With telemetry gear I could find the same animals day after day within their range near a winter den site. What I quickly discovered was that environmental factors, always assumed to be behavioral triggers in horridus really weren't. The animals were active over a wider temperature range than previously cited in the literature. They didn't seek shelter in the rain. What was clear was biochemical triggers were hugely important to some behaviors -- a male rattlesnake that literally hadn't moved in days might suddenly travel half a mile in an afternoon to find a female who had just shed and released pheromones in the process. Primal behaviors accounted for things like when to enter the den site for the winter, or maybe territorial distances. But most behaviors were triggered by other animals -- eat (rodent motivators/predatory reaction) -- compete (combat between males) -- and flight or defensive aggression. Behaviors are reactive. Context gives some clue as to motive/triggers.
Very True........
I need to ask her about that..
Albert always "poo poo'd" the half halts to me..he said don't bother with that...That surprised me at the time and I wasn't sure if he was being totally honest with me..
Jody,
What I can't get clear in my mind, as it goes against the principal is a spur stop. It makes as much sense to me as rollkur. I don't comprehend either of the methods.
Wade
Ben,
That's why what an uninformed person may perceive as love and affection in an animal act, may actually be resigned subjugation, caused by inconsistency/incompetence.
Wade
Spur Stop started with QH Western Pleasure classes when they wanted their heads draggin on the ground and not touching the reins. I have never trained a WP horse to go like that nor do I care to ride one that carries themself like that. That and their 4 beat lope keeps me out of that world.
I will admit to semi reversing aids on a problem reining horse at AN. Previous trainer had this horse so scared that it was easier for me to basically start her with something totally different and it worked..Legs on meant stop.No spurs needed on her. Legs off meant go. Not the way I'd ever want to train another to go but we needed her in the act "quick" (you know how that goes). Hardest part was training another person to work her but they learned and the mare ended up working the act for quite awhile until I left and they decided to try to make a driving horse out of her...She went back to her wild and crazy place but one that was secure for her...Still wish I could have taken that mare with me when I left. Always makes me feel bad when you get one trusting you and then another person removes it...
I'm with you also on the rollkur..Don't know why you'd ever want to train one to go behind the bit..Maybe Dianne can explain that one to us...
Jody,
Just what you said, reversal of the aids, is the only way I could make myself understand how a spur stop could be taught. I assumed I would need a different aid/signal for go so as not to be using the same one for stop. But with the requirement of a reining horse stopping in back as well as walking in front, I can see it being a useful aid. Logistically it is a confusing concept for myself.
Wade
Sorry didn't see this post about the spur stop and half halts as I had a little rat dog emergency for about three days. Little creep ate hoof feet chips got one stuck in her throat $3000.00 later she is fine.
Half halts are the basis of bridling but unless the leg is there to push the horse up into the bridle as you apply the half halt, all is naught. Also the correct feeling transmitted from your hands will also depend on the outcome. How does one explain all that without the rider in front of you on a horse with step by step corrections. Bud is now in the middle of this and even as long as he has ridden with me it took a young Andalusian to show him the way, as least beginning of a way. As you were discussing it is a feel and all the describing in the world will not do until you feel it. Albert did not use half halts, (Jody he was not kidding) and that was the big difference in his and my horses. Albert's were articulate and precise but mine were lighter and airier. his did absolutely difficult maneuvers, mine stayed with the "fun of the dance".
Done correctly the half halt's will make a horse lighter and if leg and feel is properly applied at the right time the horse's head will come up into the bridle correctly bridling the horse. I wasn't taught this, it was a feel that came to me over the years and is very difficult to relay to the rider.
The "halt with the spur" would not have been the term I would have used, I call it the "ride up into the halt". Once the is up into the bit and the horse knows that I will keep him in front of my leg into my hands, I can literally push him into my hands but by stopping my body and closing my hands he finds a stop without any pull what-so-ever. It is an amazing and wonderful tool.
Another interesting fact is that you can back a horse by asking him to go forward using the the same methods.
Hope I haven't gotten too technical, it is though difficult to explain.
Dianne,
Thank you. So was I right in assuming it would be a beneficial aid for a sliding stop, when the back end has stopped, but you are still encouraging the front end to keep moving/walking? I can't figure out how it would be off benefit or used for a western pleasure quarter horse. And they were the first ones to advocate it.
Wade
Dianne,
Glad to hear that Albert wasn't kidding about the half halts. He did have me keep my hands pretty quiet with my legs keeping him bridled up. Unlike the dressage fad tho, I don't want them to be heavy in my hands. I found it to be a happy medium with them hunting the bit.(I'm not good at describing the feel so I don't know if that makes any sense)
I did find Albert's saddlebred to be light but not his warmblood. The longer I rode his warmblood I got him lighter but then when a "dressage rider" came out to try him he said he wasn't in the bit enough for him. Can't figure those people out at all.
Since I've never done the QH pleasure deal I don't know if they train the spur stop the same what you have very well described and what I believe is the proper way to stop and/or back a horse.
Wade,
Again I'm not good at describing the feel but when stopping a reiner they have to be in the proper position to walk in front. This is achieved by teaching the proper body position from the walk,trot, and a lot of backing before you even get to the lope. Hind end underneath you and front end soft and slightly elevated allows walking in front. Maybe similiar to a piaffe pushing from behind and freeing the front legs except with reiners you don't have them up in the bridle but they still have to give to the bit when they slide. You can tell the ones that don't give to the bit by looking at stop pics or videos. If they are soft in the poll they are giving to the bit if not they are braced. A prime example of a braced horse is my Mickey Mouse slide photo. He wasn't soft in the poll at all yet still had an awesome stop. Years ago you could get by with that but not so much nowadays. Hope I'm making sense. I know the feel but can't talk the talk like Dianne can. Meanwhile if you have any pull with Dianne get her to make some training videos. The world would be a better place and there would be a lot of happier horses....
Jody,
The speed at which the run down is started also elevates the forehand, similar to a boat hydro planing.
And yes video's, although only showing the philosophy/principal, and not the elusive feel would be most welcome. Bud is getting so far ahead of me now, I never be able to catch up.
Wade
Speed only works correct if the horse has learned the correct form beforehand.
Obviously Bud has a huge advantage over you right now.......Dianne's help...
As much as you enjoy training it's a waste that you are not doing it. Get your butt in gear and start training something before you dooooooooo get to old.......LOL
I'm guessing you are in Texas now.Yes?
Jody,
And stopped without your feet jambed forward, and your weight shoved into his hollowed out back.
Training is something I feel you have to live, breath. I don't think it can be done just as an existence. It has to be your heart beat, and my training heart was ripped from my chest and handed to me. I am currently looking at a couple of horse facilities, as that heart still beats. Tigers, elephants, etc. is a wonderful thing from the past.
Yes I am currently in the Lone Star state. As we were coming into Dallas, I was looking out the window and the person sitting next to me, said it is not as pretty as when we flew out of Denver. I said, I'm not looking at pretty, I am counting round pens. They looked at me funny, because some people just don't get it. LOL
Wade
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