This supposedly is a male African Elephant named Tumai. I briefly heard of an elephant name Tumai years ago, but not much else.
Monday, November 17, 2008
Tumai
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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31 comments:
Wade, this is what I found. Sad.
http://members.tripod.com/~animom/tumai.html
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
It wold be even sadder if you knew that this guy is revered by the good ol boy club but this isn't his first, or even second brush with this type of happening. Some times the AR groups are not that unfounded on what they say, their motives for saying it are all that is wrong. They believe no animal should be kept in captivity under any circumstance. I disagree. However if this is what has to happen to keep them, I DON'T FEEL IT IS WORTH IT. That said, I don't believe that's the case. There is a better way and I think we have reached a level far above this, it is just a matter of weeding out the dinosaurs. We should all keep in mind, had the AR movement not happened, this would probably be standard procedure today. If anyone doubts that, please sign your name, and tell me something in the circus biz that has ever changed by it's own choice.
This photo is from 1984. Why is it news today?
Folks I have worked in the Circus business and have known some great and not so great elephant people.
I have met Scott Riddle and worked a few dates with him in the late 80's. I can't say I know him well but I never got the impression of him being abusive.
Where is your information coming from concerning this elephant? What first hand knowledge do you have?
These allegations are coming from PETA in their latest fund raising extortion campaign.
Wade I'm sure you have seen the lengths that PETA will go to slander and twist the facts.
Again I don't know Mr. Riddle well and haven't seen him for at least 18 years. I would like to here Buckles thoughts as he in my mind is the best living authority on elephants.
P.S. I found this site just a few weeks ago and I love it and Buckles Blog as well. Thanks Wade .
Al Barkley
Casey, I see what you mean about the good ol boy club. I just looked at Dan Koehl's elephant stucbook, and noticed that this guy has a sanctuary that breeds!!! He traffics not only with the good ol' boys, but large reputable zoos also. One current resident is a wild-caught 28-year-old African bull who came from a small zoo that we visited less than a month ago.
Mary Ann
Al,
I have know idea where the photo came from. It was sent as seen with the notation, Where is Tumai at today. I had never heard of an elephant named Tumai, so I asked. But I am not going to pretend to know anything about anybody working with them on a couple of dates a year.
Thanks for the kind words, Al.
Wade
"Wade I'm sure you have seen the lengths that PETA will go to slander and twist the facts"
Come on!!,,,,,lol
"we never hit them"
"we love them like our own family"
We have to be some what realistic about things. History should be just that HISTORY.
Circus people as a whole should not feel they have to defend all other circus people whether they are rite or wrong. We should be grouped together to fight the AR movement as a whole, but we lose all credibility if we try to make things that are obviously wrong seem rite. Our argument cannot always be to scream LIARS! every time we are confronted.
Kind of odd the way the hay on this elephants head is stuck like that is it not? No we don't know the exact circumstances here, and only have the testimony of a AR site to go by. Why is that I wonder.
http://www.pawsweb.org/bull_elephant_atrocities.pdf
Seems like there might be other histories. Stoney was Ned's half-brother, I believe.
It's comforting to see that at least a few people here are refusing to blame the AR people for this.
But what ABOUT all the circus people - Struppi Hanneford, etc. who saw Ned and did nothing. Or the guy who gave his elephant to someone with a lengthy history of AWA violations. Oh, and his other elephants to the guy who is pictured with Tumai.
Yes, it would indeed seem that "the guy who gave his elephant to someone with a lengthy history of AWA violations, and his other elephants to the guy who is pictured with Tumai" really didn't care what happened to them after he made his lifetime career through them. It would seem that all he cared about was that someone else took them off his hands, and he doens't have to worry about their grocery bill, exercising them, etc. It's too bad that they can't retire in the same comfort that their former owner has. He should hang his head in shame, instead of exploiting past glory.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
Hence is the conundrum. There is much more money to be made with the private ownership of animals. But as I have said many times, in interviews why I never owned my own animals, on the the major considerations is what would I do with them, if I could no longer afford to keep them, or physically could not keep them. They are not something that you get local help out of the paper for as you would in a horse stable, for example. I have always had a real hard time with the mentality that a dog pound, for abandoned or stray dogs is a good thing, and they occasionally seize somebody's dogs. I don't hear the same alarm, or outrage when the USDA seizes some horses, or cattle that have not been properly taken care of. I just don't get it?
Wade
Wade,
I feel that people should be just as upset about the mistreatment of horses and cattle, as they are about the mistreatment of dogs and cats. A few years ago, there was an incident involving the neglect of horses around here, and it just made me sick.
I greatly admire your reason for not owning your own animals, the major consideration being what would you do with them if you could no longer afford to keep them, or physically could not keep them. That is very unselfish of you, in light of what can happen to them once they are no longer in you ownership.
Mary Ann
i think everyone should at least give scott riddle a chance to defend himself. i have never met him but i know he is well-respected by other elephant men and i certainly do not for one minute believe buckles would have sent his elephants there when he retired if scott mistreats elephants. that says a great deal to me about mr ridle. if buckles trusted him to look after anna may, that tells me everything i need to know. buckles is unquestionably the world's top elephant expert and his concern for elephants is well-known. when he was working with elephants on a daily basis, no one ever doubted the care he took with them, and i personally witnessed him butting heads with management of one major show regarding an issue he felt would have been harmful to the elephants. and he won. as far as i'm concerned, if buckles trusts scott riddle, we all should. we all know how much animal rights activists bend the truth. i hate the idea of any animal being mistreated and while i agree the animal rights movement has improved the way animals are treated, not just in circuses and zoos, but everywhere else, i find their tactics deplorable. i live in the same city where peta has its headquarters. i know that peta is not concerned about helping animals in their own hometown -- they destroy more dogs and cats that all the other animal rescue units in the state combined. they have picked dogs up, ripped their collars with identification off and hauled them away. the dead animals in the dumpsters didn't just crawl in there and die. they were murdered in cold blood by peta empoloyees.
as i already said, i do not know mr riddle, but i know enough about the animal rights movement to not trust anything they say.
Henry,
Everybody should be given that chance. That's why it is an open forum, with questions, but no accusations. I don't think somebody endorsing somebody necessarily validates them. Anymore then not endorsing invalidates them. We are not talking about PETA, they are a fringe radical group, that has invalidated themselves in the past. We are talking legitimate animal welfare organizations. There have been no names mentioned, and when the picture was sent to me, I had no idea who any people are, and didn't even know of an elephant named Tumai. I was just asking. I can't check a link that is sent, until it it posted.
Wade
Wade
I am not attacking anyone personally. I have nothing to judge this incident on but the picture we see and a disgruntled parties witness testimony. The picture says plenty if you really look. And I don't mean just look cause the elephant is laying there dead. My point is, we also cannot just disregard what non circus people say as BS because it doesn't fit our agenda. As far as the fact that said person leaving his animals with someone validating them, lets remember same person left A male we have been looking at all week with that another guy...
Also people and their techniques can change. What was standard procedure in the 80's has to have changed in the last 20 years. I am not pointing blame at any person or what they have done, I am just very surprised that no matter the facts known or not, we as a society feel we must defend our members.
Would there not be an out roar from the circus industry if Ned dropped dead tomorrow where he is, with accusations of neglect and abuse and finger pointing galore?
I promise little to none would be directed to his past.
I have found that as animal trainers we are expected to take the punches as a group, rather then individually.
I am a Republican....if some other Republican robs a bank I would not come to his defense because we share political parties.
I am a Christian.... if another Christian beats his dog I accept no responsiblity
I don't understand why when someone from show biz gets in a jack-pot we are all supposed to swarm to there aid and lie if needed to protect us as a whole. That would make us the radicals rite?
Henry,
The reason why there are always questions, is a circus story normally starts like this, "I've heard conflicting stories but the bottom line". The problem is we never hear the conflicting stories with any validity other then spite as a rule, and the bottom line is whom ever you want to believe. And somebody be kind enough to point out that I am wrong, please.
Wade
Casey,
Brilliant and well said. I am glad it is starting to make sense, and that it is nothing personal against this thing of ours. And yes as much to blame for misinformation are the folks looking in, who take the world of those with in. Has anybody ever wondered why I, who was involved inadvertently, very deeply in the first confiscation have never rattled my sabre or banged my war drum about the unfairness and getting picked on issue????
Wade
Henry,
I just looked at the link that was sent to the blog. There are two pictures of Tomai, and only one enlarges, the one that was sent to me. The other one doesn't. I don't know anything about computers, so I don't know why one will enlarge and one will not. I noted this on a Monte Carlo site, where all pictures enlarged except one, which was suspect. I was told it was a different camera that was used, but that doesn't make sense. Does anybody know why it is that some pictures enlarge and some will not enlarge? I an glad it doesn't enlarge Henry, because from what I can see in the small picture the top of the elephants head looks suspect. I can't say any more then that.
Wade
Just wanted to say, Scott Riddle came to the UK on several occasions in the late 90s to help with training elephants at 2 well-known zoos. At one zoo were 2 30 year old cows which had never been trained at all, at the other were 3 calves which had already had a bit done. I was lucky enough to be able to observe/assist at both facilities, and can really honestly say that I saw no form of abuse or cruelty whatsoever, and indeed found Scott to be a most helpful and knowledgeable gentleman. However, one of these facilites suffered a backlash from the AR folks for allowing "animal abuse". Its a shame because much of what the AR folks stand for is good, and I would be prepared to support some of their ideas, were it not for the fact that they are often blinkered and refuse to see grey areas. And the same must be said for many people who are on the other side too!!
http://www.captiveanimals.org/elephants/epp.htm
This is from an AR group. IF what they describe as happening at the Blackpool Zoo is true, was it abusive? Is this a "grey area"?
Don,
Excellent points. I think each one of us as human beings, interprets abuse in our own way. I enjoy rejoneador because it pits a man and a trained horse working in perfect unison to avoid disaster. I appreciated that the bull is given every opportunity to prove his courage, bravery and intelligence. I all so appreciated that he is killed instantly at the end of 15 minutes of fighting, and only the best, most noble are retained as herd sires, and never fought again. If they inflicted on the same bull what they inflict on them, 2 or 3 corridas a day, day in and day out, I would object strongly and suggest it is closed down. I had dog fighting for that reason, and appreciate cock fighting, less the man made spurs for the genetics of their breeding. I love the rodeo,and understand it, and realize it is not abusive, but I do not like calf roping. No way can you convince me the end of the rope is uncomfortable, plus all calf ropers are big men, and it is down to tying in 5 secs. or less. I don't see much sport.
What is the animal being taught an why? Has it's mental and physical stability been analyzed against members of it's own breed. Not all should be trained to do certain things. I can train an Arabian to passage without any abuse. But if I try to get it to passage like Dianne Olds Fresian, I will abuse it. That's the distinction most dont use, Don. Is their drug testing to become an animal trainer? Is there a psychological profile? That would be frightening, I can assure you. With no standard, try as I might how can abuse be decided? Because one elephant can be taught to do a one foot stand naturally given his physique/mentality, what abuse is justified to make one not so inclined do one, so that you can have one like Joe Schmoe. Is the person who is willing to get that result no matter what a great trainer? And the one who says no, it is no good for the animal, less of a trainer? The greatest trainers of any animal in the world are the one's with that emotion called compassion.
Wade
Wade
Wade, it is my understanding that Scott Riddle has been banned from visiting Blackpool Zoo and handling the elephants as a results of his Elephant Training Seminar that he held there.
http://www.captiveanimals.org/elephants/epp.htm
Mary Ann
Wade, I agree with everything you say, at the end of the day so many things come down to personal opinion. I know people who think its cruel to keep any animal in captivity at all, and others who would do some pretty nasty things without ever understanding there was harm in them!! By the way, Mary Ann, Riddle was not banned for anything, or from anything, after the amount of heat the AR people created the Town Council (who owned the zoo at the time) decided to end the association (obviously councill members are elected, so didn't want to lose their seats ). The zoo would happily have continued their association.Anonymous, what do you see happening on this website? Do you see abuse yourself, or some pictures which have been captioned to suggest abuse? If there is film of animals being tortured then its fine to be upset, but remember that we should trust half of what we see and none of what we hear-particularly when the people presenting information have a definite agenda!!
Don,
I believe it stated why there was no video tape available. I can't get past the picture that won't enlarge. I have looked with a magnifying glass. Can you explain what it is I am seeing. I am not sure I want to admit to what I think I am seeing.
When the people denying information have as definite of an agenda as those giving it you unfortunately have to go with the thing called a gut feeling based on known facts from both sides.
Wade
Addendum to Don and Mary Ann,
I will give the benefit of the to anything Peta suggests. It will take an awful lot to convince me they are correct on something.
Wade
Henry, being the world's 'formost expert' on elephants and being the world's 'formost expert' on handling circus elephants is two different things. One takes into account what is takes to train and manage animals. The other is concerned with life cycles, herd bonding instinct, physiology, natural migrations, evolution, etc. There have been many trainers and owners who can get the tricks out of them and know how to keep them tractible, but beyond that are far from experts. I don't know the man you're talking about, so I'm not making any judgements at all. Just be aware that there is a huge difference between apples and oranges.
Wade, I too can't get past the picture that won't enlarge, I downloaded it to my computer, and enlarged it there, obviously losing quite a bit of resolution, but this is what I saw. I assume that it was taken before the other one, since it is labeled "Tumai", and the other is labeled "Tumai 3". In "Tumai 3", he has fallen over on his side, but in "Tumai" he appears to be lying on his stomach, covered in blood, with Scott Riddle on his left side. His head appears to be covered with a large white rectangular object (bandage, cover, restraining device?), and hay has apparently been placed on top of this white object. Joe sees what I see also, although neither of us is really sure what it is.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
Why do some picture enlarge and some do not? As noted there is a Monte Carlo site that has over a dozen pictures and all enlarge except one. I have been told that folks can "disarm" a picture, I have been told different camera, and a multitude of things. Educate me please. LOL
Wade
Wade, I don't know the answer to this, so I called Joe at work. He said that the person sending or uploading the picture can reduce the pixel density.
Mary Ann
The reason some pictures enlarge and some don't is that on pictures that enlarge, two copies of the picture were originally posted by the person building the site - one small one linked to the larger one. if it doesn't enlarge it means that there is no larger picture to link to
Anonymous,
Because they forgot a larger one? Or at some point lated did somebody ask them to take the larger one off? Joe's explanation makes more sense, I'm afraid.
Wade
But surely we can't presume that this is deliberately
an unclear picture: the technology for photos in 1984 was way different from today's technology AND this was presumably undercover photo work. I doubt that there was enough resolution in the original photo to make it enlargeable; if you tried, all you would get would be a large blur. To keep the picture at all clear you would need to keep it small.
The link I posted earlier, to PAWS's story on Tumai, refers to medical records. Presumably someone has those, or has seen them.
But given the way circus people love to gossip, doesn't it seem really strange that no one is claiming to know anything at all about this elephant? It is provable that he lived and that he died at the LA Zoo. Is it really likely that no one alive today knows anything or ever heard anything about this? The rumors have been out there for many years. Has anyone ever said "I was there, and THIS is what happened?" Will they say so now?
Anonymous,
I let you post so folks could now see you fishing. They were both undercover photos so you explanation doesn't wash. I suggest the one was left small as it left it a lot more open to speculation. You mention liking to gossip and SOMEBODY should know something, yet you mention "presumably" somebody has medical records, "or" has seen them. Speculation is just high line gossip. Every thing in the world is possible and has validity until PETA's name is tagged to it, Then it is just as you say "gossip." If you want to do your animal cause any good, avoid PETA like the Devil avoids holy water. They are at the bottom of joke barrel for animal causes. I will look at and ponder any charge unless it came from PETA. Then you know quickly what it is and don't waste valuable time.
Wade
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