Thursday, November 13, 2008
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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43 comments:
Was the elephant sick? I am not an elephant expert at all so what would cause an elephant to lose so much weight?
Logan
Logan,
Congratulations. You are the first one to look pass the gloss and fluff and notice the condition. That is what I am trying to educate animal lovers into seeing. I for one have grown tired of being lumped into that bag of "cruel to animals." Hopefully they will wise up, and only hang valid paper. People say this thing our ours is dead, and it is just waiting to be pushed over. I disagree. I think it is indeed very, very ill, but might be revived. But only if the public is educated, on who should, and who shouldn't. And quit making it personal. It is about the ANIMALS, not who you like or dislike.
Wade
Anonymous from yesterday,
You see. It is not about having balls, as you ignorantly stated. Did you think that is what you had, by sending anonymous posts slandering people? I suggest you lost your's long ago and just wanted somebody else to divert attention off of your impotence. You need to really start learning more about animals. Then you would worry about them, and not having someone say what you are afraid to say, which may be wrong given your obvious lack of education and elephant knowledge on whence you spout. If I had the stomach, I would repost the video of the guy kicking the elephant in the head, but I did it once, and I don't want people to think that is the profession. It is about the ANIMAL.
Wade
Okay, I'm getting ready...
Got the bands, oh wait, did you say he already is missing them?
Anonymous # ?
Wade, I want a raise...You've been working me too hard........LOL
Jody,
This isn't an anonymous with a registered pedigree number. This is one of those anonymous wharf rats, that spread the Black Death through out the world. But what are your thoughts on the elephant?
Wade
The elephant is definatly sick, i would say a lot of its loss of condition would be to malnutrition (Giving the wrong type and amounts of food) and a severe lack of excercise. It would need also need mental stimulation, something a lot of people overlook. I once saw a photo of the Hawthorn elephants being looked after by you. I don t want to open another can of worms but a lot of people said they where sick doesnt mater with what when or how but they all Looked Bloody Good to Me. I wish people would understand its not what you do its how you do it. If you dont know Ask somebody Who does. A bit of Humble Pie never hurt anybody.
Maybee i missed something but where was it confiscated from.
Anonymous5.
The spin zone strikes again by not showing the pictures of the starving elephant performing in the ring. It's not a crime to have a sick animal if you're treating it properly. The crime is making the sick elephant perform or being the producer that is happy to book the sick elephant without seemingly giving a crap what it looks like to the public or what it does to the reputation of the industry (even if you don't care that the animal may be uncomfortable performing). It's a bullshit whitewash to claim anything else.
Slam me all you want, numbnuts. I'm just pointing out a news story. You're the one hanging the paper (to use your favorite expression)
Anonymous,
I told you to send me a picture. You have just shown the world what you are. No need for me to point it out. I will point out to the folk's that quit likely you have had you self in a sling and are trying to some how prove "your not such a bad guy". Spend more time addressing why you got hammered, and not trying to justify it.
Wade
Jody,
Note the pedigreed anonymous I am responding to now, it's not the undocumented parentage anonymous I responded to above.
Anonymous # 5,
It was confiscated in Florida. In reference to knowing something, a lot would assume that is a given with ownership. The could assume it, but it has been proven wrong time and again.
Be safe,
Wade
Anonymous # 5,
Yes in 1997 two Hawthorn Elephants died of tuberculosis. I was gone at that time. One was Joyce who I used to use for the tiger/lion riding act.
The other one was I believe one purchased from the Vargas show. Some body read an old web story, and were too goofy to realize the time span. The photos I assume you are referring to were taken in 2005 by the person who we mentioned the other day. They were shocked that one person was dealing with the elephants, as they had always seen at least 4 at Hawthorn. As they spent most of the summer days out on rich grass, the daily grain consumption was decreased. I didn't ask for that job. When the trainer and assistant trainer disappeared in the night, and the male tore his door off and was wandering around loose, it was "given" to me on a long,cold winter night in 2004, and canceled my trip to Monte Carlo. Made a lot of people happy and they were quoted, "good, he doesn't know anything elephants. The asshole will be dead 24 hrs." I wish you had been there to help load the elephants that had not been handled for 11 years in the truck. I'm alive and they were wrong on both accounts, and I went to Monte Carlo at a later date. LOL
Wade
Ian,
Come on knock it off. You were the one who thought a non anonymous site was great, an now you want to be anonymous.
You have my email address. Man up and send them there. Don't show these folks what a eunuch animal activist acts like. They might get the wrong impression. The movement still hasn't recovered from Peta's dog killing deal, and it could use a PR fluff.
Come back and join us instead with your comments and insight.
Wade
According to Bob Cline's blog, the elephant is Lance Ramos' bull "Ned".
Joey,
Thank you. I was looking at the live cam expecting to get a glimpse of the arrival, but it was only heralded by this still photo.
Wade
To No Spin readers with a name,
Now if you want to come with the comment's, let's have them. But unless you are virgin pure, do not expect to grind an ax here. I have spent to long in that un holy arena, to permit it to happen to another human being, whether they are my best friend or most hated enemy.
Wade
Addendum to No Spin readers,
Let's see who are going to be the first ones to send me pictures of the animal performing, and on what blog they got them from. I would assume it would be a lot of you "soft target" folks.
Wade
Let us wish the best for Ned. Regardless of our views or our taking sides for zoos or "sanctuaries," the elephant was in bad shape and hopefully a good bill of health will be the happy ending for this bull.
Wade,
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to look at that elephant and see it's not healthy.
What I don't know is under what circumstances did he end up like this... Could be he was on the short end of the groceries or there's a medical issue going on which prevented him from gaining weight. Is he old? Where they confiscated him, is that where he's been all along or did he just recently arrive there..
Example: I agreed to board a horse for someone and when I picked him up he was skin and bones...Now, if someone had come to my place they would have thought that I was the one that allowed him to look like that...So, I don't feel it's fair to point a finger unless you have all the facts...
BTW: That horse I picked up is now fat, happy, and the boss of the pasture at 30+ years old...
Hopefully the elephant will come around too.
I received this link from a friend. The link is no doubt AR bias, though my friend is not. My comment to Photo 16: is that chain really heavy enough to hold this bull? I have seen larger chains for younger African cows.
Oops, I think I forgot to attach:
http://picasaweb.google.com/jkirlin/Ned#
Ryan,
Bravo. I am real proud of you partner. You were the first one with picture, after Joey stepped forward with the information. Now Mary Ann, may understand my encouragement and devotion to young people. They are the future. They are the ones, who will be burdened with this as I have been. The new blood needs to address the issues and take it to the next generation, with a clean clear conscience. I'm old, my war is just about over, carry on Joey and Ryan.
Anonymous, you questioned my integrity a couple of days ago. I saw this elephant in December, and asked where is USDA when you need them. Against my strong, strong disagreement/objection to John Cuneo my son was forced to take tigers from this man for his act, because I would not pick up 4 declawed tigers that would be gifted to Hawthorn and train them for him. Birds do flock together. I lost a 34 year old dear friend in the aftermath, and tremendous ill will in the company. I contacted 4 high ranking USDA officials when I saw this elephant, who had given me their business cards the past 5 years, by phone and email and left messages and never heard a thing. Now I realize they were already aware, and the seizure was in the works but it does move slow. Maybe a good thing because some sorry sad sack would have perceived my action as jealousy. So anonymous, you can help your self to a big bite of this "just as guilty ass", because in a realist's world, maybe I am.
Wade
Jody,
I don't know who would be more responsible, you or the person who gave you the horse. That's kind of like this situation. The man who had it in his possession or the man who sold it to him for a dollar?
Wade
Me Responsible?
I picked the horse up to bring it to my place to board. The original owner still owns him and boards him with me...She is on the road alot and the previous place she boarded him was the one who let him get in such bad shape...As soon as the owner saw his condition she had me pick him up....Prime example of getting the facts straight before coming to a conclusion....
Jody,
Don't misinterpret. I was by no means, pointing at you. The point was would they think it if you had possession of it. Reacting before a full story is know is what an activist does, pro or con. Sorry if you misunderstood.
Wade
Wade, here is a video of Ned's arrival at the sanctuary:
http://www.elephants.com/Ned/nedstart.htm
Mary Ann
So nobody knows for sure if Ned was performing or not? Correct? I don't know all the details in this case so I am going to do my best not to make assumptions but I do know if this was MY elephant he would be off the road and recieving whatever care that he needed to recover.
Does anybody know what Hanneford thought of this whole situation?
Logan
Logan,
I have been staying out of this, as I think we will see something interesting. I but off running it, even after some anonymous post's that were vary hostile. I have sense found it was a person who works at a cat shelter. Not one person from the industry sent anything, yet I have gotten 5 emails about a tiger killing a zoo keeper in Mexico today. Those bad bad zoos, right? When I asked the anonymous who was so insistent that I run pictures, I ask for them from him. None were forthcoming, except from 2 "zoo" elephant people, who love the circus, and a "townie" who also appreciates the circus. Not one from the industry. I have stayed out of the comments to see how many from the industry would comment. Look at the comments, with the exception of a very one sided,knowing nothing of what they spoke, ax grinder from the industry. I address one of his accusations on the size of the cage he was looking at in the above post, and pointed out that they were what was given to me, and was the norm in 1984. His anger came at me posting the picture, and making the statement about seeing it this winter, and called me a hypocrite. People love that word, it is like co** su**** or c***, to the hillbillies using it, yet few know it's meaning.
I was made aware of it, a couple of hour's after it left, south Florida. I noted a lot of activity from USDA and Fish and Wildlife reading the blog a few day's prior(yes, anonymous aren't so anonymous). Others noted activity from Born Free. I assumed it was in conjunction to the court case that was delayed a week prior. Now, I am assuming it was monitoring to see if there was any knowledge of the impending seizure. They are worried the cat will be let out of the bag, and the cat is pissed when it is out, you make note of it. I drug my feet, and didn't say anything, until I kmew the fact's, even taking abuse from an anonymous for not posting it immediately, and then taking abuse from an anonymous when I did.
Let's see who is going to offer a valid opinion from with in, as they like to claim they are concerned at being a soft target, and let's see who is going to hide there head in the sand. You are the first from with in to publicly say, "WHAT", but a lot have express the same thought in private. This being a friendly open arm society, they should have no problem expressing them openly with identification. Reactions we get, will depend on whether we shut this blog down or keep it going, It's purpose was to be an open forum to discuss issues. If that is not going to happen, what is the sense? To be an open target and express the opinion's of others, as they prefer the comfort of hiding behind a tree.
Wade
Just when things seemed to be getting better, one monkey can stop the show. Heard a portion of a phone interview with Lance Ramos and he says that Ned has a stomach condition that doesn't allow him to eat alot at a time. Huh? Some background on Ned. Born at Busch Gardens from Roman Schmitts' Vance and Josky, both BIG Sri Lankin subspecies. he was a member of the Woodcock Performing Elephants on Big Apple for 9 years before going to Mr. Ramos. I have a few videos of him performing with Ben Williams family and he looked like a sound healthy elephant. After I calmed down yesterday I decided to pull out some recent photos of other sons of Vance+Josky/Mala/Sid to see a genetic link. Looking at Smokey, Hank, Roman/Big Boy. No luck there, even Big Boy looks better than Ned! This affects all of us in the elephant and animal business, zoo, circus, private. One of the AR folks main accusations is "they don't feed those poor animals", well... After my 10:30 show this morning, while people were enjoying touching Panya, the questions started, "Did you hear about the guy that was starving the elephant in Florida?" So now I'm pissed off again! I have never been a big fan of the AZA and not that crazy for the EMA sometimes but at least they try to police thier own members and look for inprovements before things get this bad. These are the thoughts of a guy worried about the future of these things of ours. We are in a bad light again and this time we deserve it.
Joey,
Well said. I don't know if is is deserved, as much as expected with the heads in the sand. As for the question's you received, that is indeed an experienced scenario. In response to AZA's efforts, try gaining employment in the zoo field with Hawthorn extensively on your resume. Answering a few uncomfortable questions is easy. This is akin to applying at a synagogue, and having to list, Third Reich under employment history. LOL
I think when this "is" addressed factually, Ned's pedigree will not be as much of a factor as his environment, and why Mr. Ramos who lost his USDA license once ended up with him, should be as much of an issue as his current state. Those "bastard sanctuary's" may have been a better solution unless you really needed the dollar he was sold for. The organization which "initiated" the first seizure protocol, made one of his animal acts spend the winter at this facility, picking up "donated" tigers, instead of using animals from his facility, "because he can", and left animals from the Hawthorn program there. I hope they are all right. As I have said for years, in this industry the "birds tend to flock together", and should you question, as you all have seen, it is like the scene out of the Hitchcock movie The Birds, where the feathered darlings have a go at Tippy Hendren. Going on a week later, still no pictures or thoughts from the industry or the fans who "helping" it fight the good fight for truth and justice against the evil empire of AR,
Wade
I posted this link above but I will again, here are pictures Wade.
http://picasaweb.google.com/jkirlin/Ned#
Wade, I know the pedigree is not a factor, I guess I was in such disbelief that I was reaching for something, anything. I know that doesn't help and I would never tell someone "he's fine, his whole family looks like that". Yes Wade it may be expected but I still say it is deserved because of the heads in the sand. "Smile and wave boys, smile and wave."
Listen to this bit of AZA politics. I have been in the animal field for 22 years now, 18 with elephants of all kind (Asian, African, bull, cow, zoo and circus). During Audubon zoo's recent accreditation inspection, it was found out that I am not a member of the AZA. The zoo was threatened with losing it's member institution status if I didn't attend the AZA Principals Of Elephant Management school in Feb. 2009. I will have to sit in a classroom for a week and be taught about elephants from a bunch of Disney marketing people and protective contact keepers with less than ten years on thier belt, all for the low cost of...$825.00 plus lodging and airfair. I can't wait.
Joey,
It is strange thats for sure, but the up side is it is an effort at a "standard," surely for the benefit and not the harm of the animal. I would suggest a lot more validating then a "Government Registered Wild Animal Training" certification. The other option is letting folks do what the think is best. We are seeing the flaw in that thinking on this post.
Can't the Institute do a "Send Joey to School" type of fund raiser? Lol
Wade
Ryan,
I tried that link before, but it didn't work. I'll try it again, thank you.
Wade
Joey,
It is strange thats for sure, but the up side is it is an effort at a "standard," surely for the benefit and not the harm of the animal. I would suggest a lot more validating then a "Government Registered Wild Animal Training" certification. The other option is letting folks do what the think is best. We are seeing the flaw in that thinking on this post.
Can't the Institute do a "Send Joey to School" type of fund raiser? Lol
Wade
My question has yet been answered, does anyone have a comment/suggestion?
My comment to Photo 16: is that chain really heavy enough to hold this bull? I have seen larger chains for younger African cows. Or would it work only in his emaciated condition?
A second question, does PAWS plan on cohabitating these two males if all goes as planned?
Wade,
I'm not suprised that you recieved those "bad zoo" articles. It seems like a lot of people are much more willingy to point the finger at others then try to work together with other industries to make the life for the animals that we all love as best as possible and to make sure we all have the right to work with these animals in the future. If we are going to win this battle we all need to work together.
I am probably going to get myself in a lot of trouble over the whole Ned situation but I am not going to sit quiet when I feel something is wrong.
That being said I don't believe this "blanket" approach the industry has taken is working. Simply saying the circus has no abuse in it or never has is not working with the public. The average joe would only have to youtube circus abuse to see some terrifying images and then some no so terrifying images. I know the majority of animal people take great care of their animals but the average joe does not and there aren't many places for him to look for it. I think if the industry ackowledged there has been "bad apples" in the past and weeded them out the public would have a lot more trust in us.
Logan,
You may recall a comment I made to Show Biz a while ago, in regards to the basketball elephant. You may have thought I was a prick when you made a request a while ago to start a a pro site, and I said the web is full of them. Zealots in the positive have been as destructive as zealots in the negative. The pros spout unfounded unsubstantiated rhetoric that a half educated public member says WHAT??? when it is repeated. Jackpots about elephants trumpeting and getting excited upon seeing a lot they haven't been on for a number of years is just that. Jackpots. Feel good stories that have no scientific basis, yet get passed around the campfire like the telling of the "Tell". Love an animal for what they are not for what you want them to be.
Wade
Hi Wade,
No I didn't think you were a prick. I have a great deal of respect for you.
I am still pushing around the idea of a pro site. I don't want it to be extreme. I want it simply to give the other side of the story. For example have the studies that have been conducted on circus animals by organizations such as the UK Government, Texas A&M Univeristy, etc. It's really hard for a "townie" to find several of these studies I believe.
I also think there is a great demand for such a website because of hwo many people get to my blog by searching "positive facts about circus animals" "circus animal pros" "counterarguments for circus animals" etc.
Logan
Logan,
Because neither of those studies very much good, or of any real value, particularity the UK study which was very stacked in it's findings. They are not something that has ever been at the top of the list. If there was a valid accurate study done Logan we may not like the results. I particularly want one done on the "head" for once. A lot of space, and good food doesn't alway mean happy, or fit mentally.
Wade
Hi Wade,
Can you explain to me a little bit why those weren't very good studies? Was it mainly due to bias researchers or was the research flawed?
Logan
Logan,
Extremely biased researcher's. I have a copy signed to an animal trainer thanking them for all the help, and what a pleasure it was working with them. The study in England was done in the late 90's and is still quoted today 18 years later. You don't suppose it is time for a little more updated research? It was done to their situation. What in the world does it have to do with animals doing a building route in the middle of the winter? What was learned studying animals which may travel 40 or 50 miles, and animals which may travel more extensively. Ted Friend did one a number of years ago, where the elephants were fed a small sensor, and the trainer and the drivers were told to stop every 2 hrs. on a schedule and water the elephants and collect any sensor's that had been relieved do to speak. After reading the monitors it was concluded that there was no stress what so ever. First off one trip, short trip, stopping religiously at scheduled times, etc. etc. I promise that exacting protocol was never followed before or after. Look for studies done in relation to other animals historically, such as horses in transport, or zoo animal physiology, health, welfare, and then look for circus. You will find that there hasn't been as much done as folks would hope to assume, and what is done is done with the help of, often leading to friendships and bias. Very important Logan is who is doing what with the animal, not what the animal is doing. Seen any mental health studies lately. Seen any in the past? I have always felt it is much more then physical health. Do we know what is going on inside their head, just because they "look all right?"
Wade
OooooooOOoooohhh...
NOW I understand why my photos were needed.
FINALLY!
Yeah, it was totally performing and working.
Oh yeah.
You mentioned studies by Tedd Friend. While Mike Rowe was here doing his heat exchange study, Mr. Friend's name came up. It seems that USDA couldn't rely on Mr. Friends research and hired Mike to go back re-do most of the studies because they were riddled with inaccuracies and out dated examples. I saw alot of these papers just three weeks ago. He didn't re-do the sensor/elephant study though.
Joey,
In addition to biased, fascinated by "cute and charming", which is something that has to be watched for in dealing with some female trainers.
Wade
The pictures I was actually waiting to be sent, were on the "history channel" and Dan the Bookers site. I have been told the have disappeared since the confiscation occurred. That's true circus fashion. I am also assured Mr. Wayne McCary, unless he or someone can prove different, President of OABA of which the Circus elephant help group is a part also watched this elephant perform. And you wonder why I question him going to Monaco, to join the Princess and her mob in the saving of animals in the circus. Some times they are are just two busy double cheek kissing and being seen to really think about what help they are doing. I think we are being used truthfully.
Wade
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