Saturday, November 15, 2008
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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23 comments:
YES, most definitely!!!!!
Mary Ann
I don't know that they dropped the ball. The wrong in this was that the elephant was loaded up and worked in this condition. Being in this condition may or may not be anyones fault, and I assume as long as there were vets trying to figure out what was causing it the USDA would have let it be. I have no loyalty or friendship to this man, however I can't believe anyone would intentionally let an animal they planned to use get this thin. I have to assume there is a medical issue, and that someone was trying to get to the bottom of it. And the sad fact is,,,that ANIMALS DO GET SICK. That said, Maine and New York is pretty far from Florida and loading a sickly animal up in the truck and hauling it a couple thousand miles is questionable for sure. Mr. Ratliff has already noted as I have that he came from healthy looking breeding stock at Busch. The three Busch babies I have seen up close (Ceasar, Benny, and Tommy)were large healthy animals. All that adds up to maybe the USDA gave the situation the amount of time they felt was needed, before intervention.
Blaming the regulators are we? How about the probably dozens of good circus folk who saw this animal in Florida and every stop along the way who were too interested in being with it and for it to call the Humane Society or police - forget the understaffed USDA.
Mary Ann and Casey,
Then how accurate is this statement from the Grass roots Coordinator of Government Regulations, for Feld Enterainment?
"The circus industry (and all elephant handlers) are already highly regulated and inspected by the federal government through the U.S. Department by Agriculture. Further, all performing animals in circuses are subject to animal protection laws at the state and local level when they visit..."
Wade
Wade, the logical conclusion is either the animal protection laws do not have enough teeth in them, or the enforcers are doing a poor job. If the laws are strong enough, then the USDA (at the federal level) and/or officials at the state level and/or officials at the local level are not enforcing the laws. Therefore, the statement is false.
Mary Ann
The animal has been protected now. It is some where else, and it is yet to be seen whether that will change his condition.
Anonymous,
Where is your name pal? You are rite though, alot of the blame should fall to a producer that would hire an elephant in that condition. Worse yet allow it to work after seeing it in person. I am assuming by your need to be anonymous, that you are very "WITH IT AND FOR IT" pick a name so you don't seem like a hypocrite,,,lol
Ned's 'expert' Florida vet claims that Ned suffers from anorexia. Is it possible for an elephant to suffer from the fear of gaining weight (the medical definition of anorexia)? Sounds like bull to me.
Anorexic elephant? Sounds dubious. Elephant with food digestive disorders/assimilation disorders? Possible. But does the claim of anorexia sound any more far-fetched than the claim of a certain sanctuary that an elephant was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder after it had killed a young girl? Just a thought...
Anorexia? SDounds dubious if we consider it the same as the human illness. Disorder of the digestion/assimiliation/ processing/conversion of food as a medical issue? Possible, but why work/present an animal in this condition? By the way, if Anorexia sounds far-fetched, does the claim by a certain sanctuary that an elephant there had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after it had killed a young girl sound far-fetched too?
Don,
I don't think they are claiming it got post traumatic stress syndrome after it killed the girl. I think they are claiming it killed the girl because it hat post traumatic stress syndrome because of it's past life.
Wade
Thanks for the correction Mr Burck, but you get the idea of what I'm trying to say? If an animal can be suffering from a particular mental illness, then why can't another of the same species be suffering from another mental illness? If we assume that animals can be mentally ill (and it must be an assumption, it is hard enough to diagnose people, who at least are able to talk with us!) then who could possibly determine which conditions can or cannot affect a non-human species? Just thinking out loud, I have my own opinions but am open to persuasion either way!
Don,
The big, big, problem is that most of it is assumption/speculation. There has not been any extensive/adequate studies done. If it sounds good to the anti side, they jump all over it. It it sounds good to the pro side, they embrace it. I have worked around these animals for over 30 years, and I scratch my head and gasp at most of the things that are said as gospel. Could I have been that ignorant/unobservant I missed all of that, I find myself asking? The post traumatic stress syndrome issue, at least means we are addressing a problem. The problem of aggression. As I have stated in the past, I feel the most important time of an animals life, wild and domestic is the early years and their early environment. There have been extensive conclusive studies done on that issue. Very few animals are "trained" to any great extent, other then basic manners as immature, or young babies, including horses, tigers, lions, etc. etc. with the exception of elephants, who are trained as babies, due to their eventual large size. I just have to keep asking how much of the aggression, rutting bull withstanding, has to do with the training/regimentation in their early life. I have also stated, if a study was done on which elephants have gotten aggressive, and who trained them in their early years, you would find a parallel that might shock you. I am not ready to give it the simple/pat explanation of a mental issue, until environment has been addressed and eliminated.
The African elephant laying on a ramp way after running away, is the one that had to be killed eventually in Hawaii. I was around that elephant from the time she was 2 years old and over the years say a multitude of people working with her. She ran many, many times before her ultimate end. Any horse trainer, or animal trainers want to convince me that it is good for an animal to have many, many, different people working with it? The gentleman with Stony, I have never met but he was brought in to be in charge of a brand new breeding program that produced on offspring, and eventually was closed down due to a government seizure.
How many people became instant elephant trainers, when Arthur Jones brought in over 50 African elephants? How many became instant male elephant handlers, when they were being bred, and the valuable females were retained for breeding, and the over abundance of males were sold?
On a neighboring blog, I mentioned seeing 47 elephants under the age of 5 on one show in 1975, which would make them about 38 years old today, in reference to a picture posted. When I asked if anybody know how many were around today, not one person responded with an answer, and you will hear that site revered over and over for it's knowledge and historical accuracy.
I will suggest again Bud, what is the standard? What qualifies somebody. If somebody buys a horse and causes it problems because of inexperience, it is a relatively easy matter to take it to a sales ring and get it off of your hands. With the dog, that you don't want any more, it is a relatively simple matter to put an ad in the paper. What do you do with the elephant, tiger, bear, chimp, etc. etc. that you have ruined due to inexperience?
We needed a standard, and not something as lame as a "Government Regulated Wild Animal Training" certificate.
Wade
Wade, the picture of "the African elephant that had to be killed in Hawaii" on Dan Koehl's site is pitiful. It shows her cornered, still standing, and covered in blood with fear in her eyes:
http://www.elephant.se/database2.php?elephant_id=1672
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
I have pictures of that elephant when her name was Mikey, and she was about waist high. I am pulling pad off of her back feet, and I could hold the foot in one hand, as it was only as big as a saucer.
I also had a number of individuals grandly tell me how they "controlled" her over the years. It's why I don't talk about Mikey any more. Who was wrong, the person who owned her, or the people that he hired.
Wade
Wade, the owner definitely. Ownership carries a responsibility to see that your animals receive the best possible care, from the most qualified people.
Mary Ann
In the trajedy of Tyke, let's not forget the man that put his life down to save another. The media will never let him die. Rest in peace Allen.
Mr Burck, I quite agree with your comments, I believe that trainig and handling has a much greater effect on the mind of any animal than we sometimes realise, but not always negatively. I think we once more find ourselves at a place where we find that certain training methods or trainers are producing well-balanced, "normal" animals whereas others are not. I think too that some (a few) animals just hit the ground mean/nervous/smart/or whatever character trait you name. The point being that to say an animal is or isn't mentally ill is something we can never really be sure of 100% because we can't read their minds, but as you quite rightly say people will bandy terms about to bring a human element into play, and therefore get support from different areas who may not necessarily understand animals the same way as you do. Using emotive arguments to support a point of view is very hard to discuss in a logical fashion! I agree too that there are so many "instant experts" (just add bullshit!!) who are happy to chime in at the least opportunity!
Don,
Again environment has been proven to play the most important part in an animals personality, more so them genetics. Nervous, scared, mean can all be counterbalanced with environmental adaptations at an early age.
Wade
Ryan,
Did the the autopsy not find alcohol and cocaine in his system.
Wade
Addendum to Ryan,
They also won't let die the fact that the elephant had a history of running that turned into aggression.
Wade
Well,Mr Burck, I personally don't agree that environment is the single most important factor in the development of any animal or person, I believe that nature and nurture are equally so. Behaviour is a synergism between genetics, and the environment in which an animal finds itself.This synergism is nature TIMES nurture, not (as was believed pre-1950s) nature PLUS nurture. Hebb(1953) described it by saying that trying to determine which is most important was like trying to determine whether length or breadth was more important in understanding the area of a field!And of course keeping say a 2 year old elephant calf chained for 20 hours a day, for example, is certainly NOT a great environment! I know places where this happened!!By the way I only recently discovered your blog, keep up the good work!
Don,
I you are equating "nature" as being an animals natural environment, name me one wild caught adult animal that has been worked with in captivity in the past 50 years? An animals environment and the world in that environment, and how they perceive that environment starts developing the day they are born, preparing them for the day they will be self sufficient in order to survive, or a trained obedient animal being told what it will do, and when it will do it. Thank you for the kind words about the blog. Email me at wburck3@aol.com as I would appreciate further discussion with you.
Wade
Mr Burck, when I use the word NATURE, I don't mean an animals natural environment, I mean its genetic profile, that is the part of the mind which is preprogrammed or instinctive..And when I say environment, I don't just mean where it lives, I mean everything that happens to it (habitat, diet, training, interspecific interaction,etc)which could possibly influence it. So an animal born into its natural environment has all the facilities to allow its personality and physicality to develop according to its NATURE. We don't always create an artificial environment in captivity which allows proper development. An animal MUST be given access to sufficient stimuli in its environment, but it must also have the correct genes to develop. So for example, a hippo living in the river Nile is not going to be cuddly just because its happy in its environment!!
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