As Margaret and Casey are setting a Capriolle standard, I think they are being swayed by the pretty red coat. Compare to the horse above, of which I will take credit for training before John Herriott does.
Monday, September 8, 2008
Capriolle Standards
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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36 comments:
Wade - Without picking apart each of these pictures, I would like to say that a good photographer can make one horse look better than another. Catching the horse at the precise moment he kicks out and from the correct angle is extremely difficult and can make a world of difference. I would have to see the horses actually perform the maneuver before choosing. The first one, as you said, is a near perfect picture of a capriole. The third one is the Smaha's Pluto Andantino and he is on his way down. I have a picture of him which is nearly identical to the first picture. Wish I had a scanner to send it to you. The fourth one is taken from a bad angle (and you know I am partial to Diane). I have seen hers perform and know it can be better than this picture. The other two look to be OK caprioles, but do not have the height that the others have. Also, the first one has the background taken out so as not to distract from the horse and make it a prettier picture. Again, I don't think it is fair to judge a performance or act from a single still shot.
Jeannie
Jeannie,
You are correct on what each of them were doing(Smahas shot late, Dianne shot early, Krone shot early, etc.) and the unfairness of one still shot. But there is a difference between a set shot and a random shot. Imagine a circus judge voting on the same standard and applying it to everything from clowns to elephants, to trapeze, to dog's, to acrobats.
Wade
Wade - I totally agree with you. If they are going to judge circus acts, they should be judged against like acts, not against all acts.
Jeannie
Jeannie,
That is the sadness and sham of the whole circus competition concept in the last 20 years. There is such a gap in acts anymore, it would be like judging Prince Plaudit against Chief Josephs Foundered Flossie if you went act to act, so the trade off is to go apples to oranges and pretend it is the academy awards who at least has a box office standard. It is the whores who have propagated the fake for personal gain who have taken the biggest bites out of the Circus.
Wade
I take issue with your crass statement about taking credit. Look, you pompous jerk, if I say I trained something or was at a certain time and place you can be sure that is, or was the case and over the years I doubt if you and others could fill in my tracks. I did not completely train that capriole and believe young Althoff did as I suggested, but I did make its presence an important part of the act that season. For further info, you know it all jerk, when I took over those horses there were only eleven and had been for the previous season. Very late in the Fall Doc Henderson and I went to a place on Morgan-Johnson road and bought a bang tail camelneck grey horse for 250.00 dollars and on my lunch break from my other duties I trained him in the act and when we opened that season in early Feb. I believe, he worked and did the whole thing, waltz, voltes, rear, etc. and never missed a show. Charlie Baumann backed up the ring for me and he could not believe it. When I left Blue show Billie Baker tried to work the act and was not satisfactory and it did not appear. Later it showed up as an eight horse act on the Red Show presented by Henry Schoerr. Just for the record. Where were you?
I have seen those long line caprioles over the years take five or six tries before they get the correct timing with the horse. With Capriole at liberty once or twice usually gets the job done. Most of those long line people would not have a clue as to "call out" or other liberty expertise. Unfortunately they seem to know it all.
Smaha did it as well as all I have seen, including the "Real" Spainish riding school during their appearances here with both Palomino Quarter type horse [Timmy] and Lippazaner.
Rarely can the camera do justice to the trick especially when it is not posed for retrys.
Its very interesting that you are the self appointed critic on all these various subjects and "whoa" be it to those that would call you to attention. Must be nice to know you areso knowledgable.
Col. Herriott,
A pompous jerk at least has some credentials. A moron jerk is just that, an ignorant jerk. Only a moron jerk like you would admit to wasting your time with a bang tailed, camel necked horse regardless of what color it was. I guess you get in a comfort zone of dealing with crap and it is hard to get out of it. And at 250.00 the intention was probably to use it for cat meat until your horsemans eye spotted a contender. Why would Baker or Schroder even want to waste time brushing that, let alone take it in the ring where people can see it in good light? What Althoff are you talking about? The one with the riding act, or the one whos bears ran off all the time?
Capriole at liberty is an oxymoron(not like moron jerk, that's different). It's just something to take up time if you can't train a weave or a thread the needle, or a even a decent hind leg walk. It's as easy as blocking the unfortunate creature, and whaling away with the whip. Roman nosed jughead tries to run you down, bust him in the mouth, apply a little more heat and he is airborne for a "liberty capriole."
And now you are going to critique the Lippizan caprioles for height? They are blood stock, beyond your realm of comprehension. Forget the grey I trained in the top picture for a moment, and let's use Henry the donkey as the standard. Now critique them. Col. Herriot.
Regards,
Wade
Col. Herriott,
Nice is not an appropriate word for being a self appointed expert. Comforting is more appropriate. And it doesn't take long. It only took a couple of trips to Europe and some time around Madame Col. Olds Rossi to realize I had been bullshitted in regards to "Airs" in the American Circus. Do you know how stupid I felt the first time I told a real Riding Master, "you haven't seen anything until you have seen a capriole at liberty, and you never will because you don't have any good horses, like we do in America, with ewe necks and wallered eyes. If you are lucky enough to find one with ring bone, you have a real champion in the school. By rights they should have handed me a pitch fork and told me to go back where I belonged, but thankfully they didn't.
Regards,
Wade
No fair....Now if you had said I was swayed by a nice tight bum, I would have to admit to that....But you didn't post the top picture of the grey in the first set of photos. Did you really break this horse? I'm impressed Darlin, even if you are a "pompous jerk."..LOL..
Wade - Although I still believe the Smaha's Pluto was the best I have ever seen at the carpiole, there was another on the Royal Lipizzan Stallion Show that had a pretty good one. Gaylord Maynard and Benny Cristiani had the "Royal Lillipution Stallions", which were actually white mini mules, Monterey Jack and Tijuana Jill. One of them, I believe it was Jack, did a very nice carpiole. While it would not knock a rider off his horse in battle, it was just the right height to effectively disable any man.
Jeannie
Margaret,
You have seen the nicest, tightest one, so I never assumed that's what you were looking at.
Wade
P.S. Plug Joseph's ears.
Jeannie,
I agree with you and disagree with you. I agree with the statement about Tony Sr. incredible horse. Even more impressive is the small area of the circus ring, that Madame Col. pointed out is a detriment, that he was able to perform it in.
I disagree about Gaylords mini mules with out even seeing them. Henry, Col. Herriotts mini mule holds that crown, bar none. With the little guys you have the size advantage of "jerking" them airborne, in addition to the whip. I had a white mini horse that would top them all, but he would only do it when he was around a mare. I ended up doing a shoulder carry with him a number of times. Matisse was the little snots name.
Wade
Wade - You know, I had forgotten about Col. Herriott's little capriole mule. I only saw it on video, but he was quite good. What made Gaylord and Benny's act was the fact that it was the Lipizzan show and they did an entire parody of the show in one act, including the airs, from the exaggerated costumes to the pas de deux. It was just really funny and really cute. I guess you had to be there, and I was lucky enough to be there.
Jeannie
Jeannie,
How could you have forgotten Pluto Henry!!!!! He was rumored to be the reason Col. Podjoisky hung up his spurs in defeat and humiliation. Vienna almost had to admit that hundreds of years of tradition had been for naught.
Wade
Oh, Wade, you sarcastic thing you. By the way, when Margaret said nicest tightest ass, was she referring to the fit of the Wranglers or the whole person?
Fondly, Jeannie
Jeannie,
She was referring to the bottom half only. To give you an idea, imaging Michelangelo's David in one size to small denim.
Wade
Jeannie....I said bum....I believe it was Wade that called himself an ass..LOL..And Wade I've got your far side of 50 right here..LOL..
Margaret,
I don't believe I called myself an ass. That was somebody else who called me an ass. As for your far side of 50, unless you have moved it, I think I remember where it is at.
Wade
Wade,I stand corrected,your right,( I hate having to say that) LOL..And no nothing has moved,it's all still right where it's always been..Olaf..
Margaret,
Who's Olaf? The Norwegian logger who has moved in next door?
Wade
What alot of Spin Crap you use to try and cover up what you don't know in the first place. I am amazed the number of experts in the field come out of the woodwork. Yes, the circus style of this Buck Jump [capriole] is at liberty as it is a "call out" while the rest of the horses circle the ring. As to the ring not being big enough, for christsakes you have eleven horses circling the ring and the call out horse and trainer in the middle. In the Cole Palomino liberty act that I would present along with Cristiansen, Smith, Nelson, Milt Herriott, Delbosq over the years was a stallion named Turquoise, we called him Turkie and he did just that. I believe Delbosq originally trained him and for some reason he hardly ever did it in the show. I believe the no.12 horse Smokey was more exciting with his ears back fighting hind leg rears, and believe me he would run you out of the ring and challenge you to return. A great horse and a great routine.
Now, once again, if you can't train a capriole in longer than a week, either in fron or behind you need some more lessons of some sort, but if you can "call out" a horse from the group moving and circling the ring at liberty [no lunges] then you know what the hell you are doing.
Col. Herriott,
I know full well what a call out or pick out horse is. Monarch was one. You called him into the middle, and he did his hindleg pivot. Granted there were only 5 left going around, but that is all there were in the act. You can do anything fast, that is no great challenge. Doing it correct is what takes the time, skill, and expertize. That's why a great Capriolle is so rare. But the great ones are breathtaking.
Wade
Col. Herriott,
I also trained Baskin Robbins to do a fighting stallion act, where he would charge you, teeth bared, ears back and chase you out of the ring. And yes it was spun into how you train wild stallions for movies. The wonderful thing about Baskin was when he was done trying to "kill you", you he would bow, and you rode him out bridleless and saddleless. Didn't take any training, it was just the incredible nature of an Arabian Stallion.
Wade
I do not recall Monarch doing a "call out, pivot". later on a lunge he would come in. do some sort of march and then a hind leg rear and walk depending on how he felt about it. His pivot was hardly a full turn. I took the best of the training by Laura Amandis on "Baskin" and incorporated the ears back fighting horse. Neither was I comfortable with and felt you had destroyed alot of the stuff Laura had done. In fact Dana was quite upset and vocal on that subject.
I used Monarch for a singl o run around the ring, call in for hind leg walk to front and then mount the ring curb and raise front leg. That is exactly what I did and it and the whole routine are on video.
Johnny,
There was a lot you did not see, and someday we can compare video tapes, if you would like.
Monarch came into the middle and did 4 hind leg pivots around and went back in place. His hind leg walk was done from the front to the back, and not side ways as Dana wanted, because it looked better front to back. I trained the spanish walk from the ground, just because Monarch had a natural ability for it, and never used it in the show, as it did not have an appropriate place in a liberty act. It must have been a real challenge to get him to "paw" the ring curb. They "all" stood on the ring curb after the walk so they could do the oblique. All you did was reverse the direction they went up to the ring, so they could not do the oblique any more. That's all you did. Laura trained Baskin in the mid 90's to do a nice feminine Black Stallion act, which was not appropriate for me or a man. I trained him to be a fighting stallion, ears back teeth bared, as Dana insisted on him being in the show. Maybe Dianne will tell us how much Dana ranted about her "movie horse." Dana loved it as she could incorporate her bullshit about it being a movie horse, but she was very upset when I would not use him each show if he was lame, which he was quite often, which is why he was retired as a performance horse.
Dana told me the biggest problem she had with you was that you drank all the time, and were too rough on her prized horses. Many people will confirm that. Should I ask them to respond? Is that how Princess broke your arm? Get real, Herriott we know what the little lady from Wisconsin is. That's why I trained for her years later.
And folks still think Hawthorn started in the 90's, because that's when there was nobody there to confirm the stories made up.
Wade
See Mike,
I told you he was just "ribbing" with the ignorant opinion remark. This is what the "brass tacks" look like when they are really getting thrown around,,lol
There you go again with your lying spin bullshit. I did no drink, period, when working with any horses or half assed broke camel, that everyone was afraid to lead nd even change stall, except myself. I have always enjoyed the beer joints in Wisc. since my Dombroski days after work and still do when I can get away. You probably have not enjoyed that fellowship and comraderie, so I assume your list of friends is quite short'
As to the mare breaking my arm is not true. I was bringing our dogs into the arena and the mare kicked out to the dogs, missed them but kicked the bootom half of the door that swung into me and my arem.
That I was too rough, according to Dana, on her prized horses is not remotely true and all practice sessions were done very sedate with no show of anger. I always say, "You should never exhibit any show of anger or disike for any animal in any way and expect to get the job done. Yes there are videos there of my accomplishments in converting an 85 per cent trained liberty act in to a 100 per cent. You bet I drink beer and have for many years [no more. Canadian whiskey is my choice] and I quit smoking many months ago. If Dana knocks me she should be ashamed of her self. I conducted myself as a gentleman in every way. That I absolutely refused to groom, shovel shit and harness were not in her best interests of using people, but I stuck to my guns. So be it. You should also be ashamed of yourself in trying to attack my character. What a jerk. The three nice dark chestnuts were nice horses. Should have been all of them rather than those common red sorrels and the oversized no. six Princess hould have never been in the act at all. Lead horse was excellent with a nice trot.
Johnny,
I didn't "attack your character", I defended mine!!! Do you want to see videos of my 9 year old son working the camel, horse, and pony liberty act, and leading him out every day for the show?
None of my friends drink(yes, birds of a feather do flock together) and if I thought I wanted too, Charley Baumann took that out of my system in 1984.
I have found that shoveling shit, grooming, and harnessing is in the best interest of the horse, and that is the interest that counts. I got rid of the two bay mares that were to go in the act immediately and put them under saddle and sold them, one for a nice 10,000 price, as the asking was 8500.00 along with a month of free lessons. I chose Samauri and found Monarch in the pasture, knee deep in snow, with 3 inches of hair as they forgot he was out there. Now we had five, 3 bay's and 2 chestnuts, but we need six. Two weeks later I spotted Princess in a pasture of Arabian yearlings, and noted that she was tall for a yearling. The Mexican pasture feeder told me he thought she was one of those "mixed horses", and in checking the papers, EUREKA she was a National Show Horse, and chestnut to boot. Now we had the 3 chestnut and 3 bay that the organization wanted for a liberty act. I sure didn't want to use a young filly, as I had eliminated 2 mares right off the bat, but you see John, there was no option.
As for 85% trained, that's not bad. Historically most everything you have taken over/trained(and that seems to be everything) has been only 50% trained/finished and you had to finishe it. We will let the ones who have seen it after and the ones who saw it before, decide on that 100% Herriott rating.
Lead horse(Make My Day) had a wonderful trot, thats why he did well as a Country Pleasure horse for 8 years in the show world, until they bowed his tendon, and should not have been the lead(those were what the small white haired spots were on his right fetlock. He had been pin fired.) He causes runaway problems to this day if he is not handled right. But as he had been forced into the lead in a attempt at a 2 horse liberty act a year prior, at some "jerks" recommendation, he was left there and compensated for. The lead should have been Monarch, but there wasn't a lot of time to change.
And you should be ashamed at suggesting that good things are said about the last person there. It is a very rare exception in the Circus. I have known the lady since 1988, and when she showed me a copy of Circus Report in 1999, and said she wanted to subscribe, I advised her to stay away from that deal but the "grandiose" swayed her and using your percentages she is about 90% circus to this day, and the success and mental well being of the horses has been phenomenal.
Wade
I guess I can come in on this liberty act squabble as I was in Wisconsin to watch the act day after day. I also viewed the training video that was taken of Johnny working the act so the girl could refer back to it. It seems many people had their hands on the horses and trying to learn to work them which was a determent to the horses I am sure. I watched the young lady work this act day after day, sometimes pretty well in fact and I got used to the routine. Frankly Johnny did a good job of training the handler as it looked exactly like he worked it even to Princess laging behind which no one seem able to fix. The next year Ms. Sabini was brought in to fix it all and the horses became desperate and very fast, the end result was the loss of the act itself and management barely there resulting in horses jumping out into the arena and through the seats. This nice act was literally tore apart. During this escapade Wade was asked by the owner to help fix it and I was able to watch what the act really was. They did things I never saw on Johnny's instructional video or during the year I had been watching them. I was amazed of the beauty of the act when shown to me by Wade who designed and trained it. Unfortunately the owner did not wish to take the time or make the necessary requirements asked by Wade to renew this nice act. Bravo Wade the act was beautiful and I am glad I got to see what it was orginally intended to be.
As to carioles trained in one week? Poor horsies, think of the physical abuse that must take. Sad to think that someone actually expects a horse to stay sane being trained in that manner. I was told when I trained my first capriole (assisted by my husband Rex Rossi) that they would become a one trick pony. I refused to accept that and all my horses did perform a complete routine, piaffe/passage and finishing with the capriole. In the end I quit using the capriole as I found that it was too hard on the horses and I wished to have them around and useful for a longer period of time.
I too was told by Rex Rossi that a capriole on a horse could result in a "one trick pony". It was in regard to a zebra he had helped me train, and the owner of the show I was working on brought up how "nifty" the piece of business another zebra had done on his show by kicking a beach ball out of someones hands in the act. The owner wanted to see a capriole on my zebra, to which Mr. Rossi explained would be like walking a machine gun that was just waiting to shoot you. I was very thankful for his added input in that situation.
Casey,
I would think encouraging a zebra to kick would be akin and as stupid as encouraging a tiger to bite. I taught an Arab filly to kick a beach ball one time, and eventually had to tie her up with a red lead rope, instead of black like the other horses were tied with, as the goofs would inadvertently "cue" her to kick, as they all looked alike to them when they were mucking out.
Wade
Yes, I took an 85 per cent trained liberty act and made it 100 per cent and taught a young lady, Sarah I believe, to work them and was surprised at what a fine pupil she was in remembering and paying attention. She needed alot of help in ring presence, but I did not have time for that, but I was pleased at her work. In fact I would point out various things that could happen when I was not there and how she could remedy the situation and she had the right answers. Cruel, whipping were absolutely no part of our work and wee not necessary in any aspect.
I don't believe that that camel, horse and pony were ever an act, so to speak, as I could never find any harness, bridles, etc. except the cobbled up crap that might be used in training. I think one of the horse or pony jumped over the kushed camel and a couple got on pedestals. All three did not run together, change, etc. As you already pointed out, I am pretty good at taking sub par 50 per cent crap and putting iy together right up to top notch, but With that group I was lucky to find ten per cent and they were already in the wrong direction. So much or that bull shit.
I put together for the Fall Haloween shows a very nice training-showing demonstration of liberty horses, starting with one, going to two, then how horses are added. I had Dana get number plates on the harness and made very effective use of the "mix up", culminating with all six in a polished routine, showing perfection in liberty presentation. It would fit in very well in her operation now, but I dare say I am the only one to do it.
As I have done in many other places and times. I would frequently work the entire act witout any whips at all, from start to finale. The main problem was that they did not all rear togetgher and Dana never had or would furnish the help to get that done. Too bad as it would have given the act that extra to be great.
Johnny,
You are correct there was not harness for the camel, horse, and pony, and the cobbled up harness, with the close line rope check reins, and no cruppers was all I had for the horses for 6 months. She bought me red plastic cattle tags as she wanted a mix up after I showed her how they found their places. It was goofy and I refused to do it. Nappy the camel and Chanta the horse went around the ring and revered, then they came up in twos, then Chanta reveresed and went the opposite way. Nappy got on the left pedestal and Chanta got on the right pedestal, and Taylor turned Lunatic the pony in and he did fiqure 8's with her around Chanta and under Nappy. Nappy laid down(I don't like kush) and Chanta jumped over him, while Lunatic jumped out of the ring, ran around him, and jumped back in the ring, before jumping over him after the 3rd time. Nappy got up and all 3 ran around the ring and waltzed 3 times, and lined up, while Chanta and Lunatic bowed. Taylor took Chanta and Lunatic out, and came back and threw the ball for Chanta to kick.
50% was a factious joke but if you want to lay claim to it, I guess it is appropriate.
Wade
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