Wednesday, June 11, 2008
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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16 comments:
"The Course Of Death." This one made me laugh out loud. I would think that the poor lions would find the idiots on bicycles somewhat distracting.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann - one season my son worked his high-wire act above the lion's cage. The lions were totally disinterested. As a "spectacle" it was a failure!
Many readers might not be aware that the old Motodromes featured a lion chasing the motorcyclists, a lion riding in a side car with the motorcyclist, a lion riding on the back of the motorcycle with the cyclist, and monkeys and apes as well. Usually the cage was backed right up to the motodrome and a chute opening was in the wall.
There are still a couple of the old motodromes in use. They appear at bike weeks in particular. I don't believe anyone has any animals associated with them anymore. I haven't heard of any at least!
Bob
Bob,
Some day remind me to tell you about the "former motordrome" lion that we had down at JL's in Naples in the mid 70's.
Wade
Steve,
Same deal the 2 times they had a wire act over Holtzmeir and Mark Gebels cage on Ringling. The cats realized from the start they weren't going to be able to get them, and just acted with indifference. I recall one female wild animal trainer being in awe of the wire walkers bravery when they did it in 2000, but she was the only one impressed and she didn't know better. They were quite a bit higher then this picture indicates.
As for training, if somebody teaches a foal to walk with a halter, and somebody else teaches a horse to to a capriolle are they both "horse trainers"? If somebody works 3 elephants for 25 years, and somebody else trains 25 elephants in 25 years are they both trainers?
Wade
Wade -re the trainers comparison, my answer is YES! It's just that some might be better trainers than the others.
Steve,
Theoretically that is correct. But because of that all encompassing term, and with no standard or valid certification, most don't know or accept that some are better then others. Some are Trainers of the highest caliber, and some are Presenters of a limited skill. When a thousand "athletes" are tested at an NFL combine, they quit becoming just "athletes" that day. Some go into the NFL, some go into the practice squad, and some go home. They are still athletes, but they won't play football in the big leagues, or command the salary's of the NFL.
Wade
Wade - you are right [of course]. Interesting to see that you make the distinction between trainers and presenters. Over here so few people distinguish between the two although, thankfully, only a few in the media still refer to tamers.
Back to levels of training - I maintain that, if lack of standards of training are perceived to be a real problem over there, then your industry needs a circus regulatory organisation of some sort to qualify trainers. Maybe by species and/or by levels of skill as judged by ???
However, does the industry as a whole recognise this problem or just a few of you?
Steve mate,
How's weather in the beautiful world down under?
The industry does not make the distinction between Trainer and presenter. I do because of my involvement in the equine industry. There are 4 types of classes in the bigger shows. Pro, Non Pro, Open, and Amature. A pro is a life long trainer who makes his living training horses for himself and others. A non pro is somebody who does not get paid to train, and often just has the one horse. They do not compete against each other as obviously it would be an unfair competition. Strange concept for a "circus competition", I realize. In the open class pro and non pros compete against each other, and many a Pro can be beat by a talented non pro, who was mounted tough that day. An amature is just that. Usually the person who owns the horse that the Pro rides against other Pro's. The Amature while owning the horse, often knows nothing about training and is coached through the class before and after.
I don't think anything is perceived as a "lack of standards" over here or anywhere. It is easier and feels better to blame outside influence for the troubles then to address any fault that may have occurred within. Judging different species is nonsense and as necessary as deciding that an Arabian is different from a Quarter horse. While some trainers may specialize and become very proficient with Quarter horses because of a preference to look, the same skilled individual after studying the standard of the Arabian breed could become just as proficient with them.
If the industry was willing recognize anything but a pity party, we might have moved on by now, as many other animal industries have. Not that the other industries are perfect. But more perfect then they were last year, and rest assured more perfect next year. I feel generational roots are too deep and are willing to ride it into the ground, rather admit that maybe Grandpa wasn't perfect, or possibly a bit flawed.
Wade
Wade buddy - the weather is bloody cold which is why I'm in a nice warm office talking to you!
So in the horse world, WHO judges who is a pro, non pro, open or amateur?
In our field I think that species are relevant. To me personally anyone who can handle or train bears has a lot more skill [and guts] than me. I would rank such a person a more skillfull trainer before I even looked at the actual tricks achieved and the manner in which they were achieved. Conversely, a bear trainer might rank an elephant trainer more highly because of the bear trainer's perception of elephants. Now I accept that different people are empathic with different species and that this has nothing to do with "skill" which is why I asked - WHO is going to do this assessment of trainers?
Regarding the generational thing [and the Golden Sperm Club!] - in the US do you have any young people coming into the animal training world [in circus particularly] from the outside world?
Steve,
I saw on the news that it was a bit frigid.
No body has to judge who is who. The person who only trains is obvious, and the one who only rides is obvious, as is the Amature. It is very rare for a trainer to "own" a horse. If he did, he would any be able to ride it after it was trained. Exceptions being your very skilled Clinton Anderson and Deios. He and others may have one horse that is their personal horse that they do not compete with. They only use it to demonstrate what is possible given time and patience for an individual to do. The only thing Deios doesn't do is sing the national anthem. But them Clinton has only had him 13 years. I going to listen again when he has him for 15. A pro has nothing to do with age, it has to do with individuals dealt with.
I thought you meant different standards between families, an example lions or tigers. Between
bears, elephants, and tigers. Of course they are different. If the foundation of a standard is willingness in performing a task, and is the task harmful, we would only need to reference draft horse requirements and herding dog requirements, and then use the individual best suited/bred for the task. Hopefully eliminating the tragic thoughts that animals are mine, like the tractor/trailer/equipment and "I will have any body drive it I want."
Like the law that says, "no you won't because he's/she's drunk, or doesn't have a license and hasn't learned", there should be a law for animals that says, "no you won't because he's/she's drunk, or doesn't have a license and hasn't learned."
Wade
Steve,
The "Golden Sperm Club" issue IS WHY THE BUSINESS IS DYING, and can be answered with a loud, resounding NO, THERE ARE NO NEW PEOPLE COMING INTO THE PROFESSION!!! Why in the world would they? Riches? Future? And trust me I hold my son to the same standard.
What industry in all the world has survived without babies/children/youth/new blood coming into it to carry on. Would the cattle industry survive if we said, "Here's the deal we eat the last 50 cows left, and no more breeding?" Would the equine industry survive if we said, "train what's left, and that it. No more breeding?"
Would the airline industry survive, if 90 year old Capt. Harley was the only one who stuck around because there was only one plane to fly, and only one salary for a pilot? I don't think so. The day Capt. Harley went "tits up", they would wheel the plane into the hanger, and lock the door, or put it in a museum.
Industry dead, end of story.
Wade
I agree with your licensed/drunk driver analogy but you haven't said WHO, in your opinion, should do the licensing or judge the [metaphorical] level of intoxication of animal trainers?
And we certainly seem to agree that standards are essential to pull our profession up by it's bootstraps but WHO is going to develop and police those standards?
Steve,
It would be set up by individuals who are accepted as trainers, by behaviorists who understand stress and what it is, and what causes it.
I am ashamed to have to admit, but we may have to be policed from outside.
Wade
So Wade if, as I suspected, even the good ole USA doesn't have any new blood coming into the business, maybe we are going to have to rely on the Golden Sperm Club to keep animal training alive.
How are we going to get into that mindset to modernise their way of thinking?
And don't say that we are going to let the business go "tits up" because that is the wrong answer.
Steve,
I suggest the "Golden Sperm Club" is one of the reasons there is no new blood. If somebody is given a job, for no other reason then the are a friend or related to somebody, where is the motivation to excel to earn that job, and theoretically earn the rewards? There are laws in place so that public officials can not give a job to a friend, or a relative. Yes, some do "break" the law, but are punished if caught. Damage is done to anything, when the most qualified is by passed for the relative. If what has happened has changed their mindset, we as individuals will have a hard time. Do we accept that it is their pool, and they can shit in it if they want? I don't think they have anymore right to it then I, or the next individual.
Wade
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