Monday, June 16, 2008
I wonder how many people who object to the "unnaturalness of circus animals will drop 80.00 for one of these "good cause beauties?"
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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14 comments:
Wade, people pay 10 times that much for one of Louie's paintings at the annual Feast With the Beasts fundraising auction at the Toledo Zoo.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
If they want to be goofy and help out a great zoo, more power to them. This was a "over hyped/not understood deal, that may not benefit much besides the company making the prints.
Wade
Seems a tad off kilter considering the crocodile farms are there to raise crocs for their luxury hides. Not that I see it any different than any other type of farming, and I'm sure the crocs are eaten as well, but if they are phrasing it like a donation similar to a non-profit zoo selling an elephant painting, then...
I just read an article about the Thai elephant painting business. Supposedly, since the hugely popular self portrait Ebay video, every available juvenile elephant is in artistic training. Seems like a relatively stress free (and prettu darn amazing)performance, so what the heck.
Ian
Ian,
They still have to be trained? to "paint". Is it as acceptable as sitting up on a tub, or walking on the hind legs?
Wade
"Ian,
They still have to be trained? to "paint". Is it as acceptable as sitting up on a tub, or walking on the hind legs?
Wade"
Wade, as you know, my opinions are pretty radical, but in comparrison to the physical stress that I imagine can result from hind leg, front leg, one foot tricks painting seems pretty mellow in that regard. If you're going to have elephants do tricks, they might as well be tricks that are benign.
By the way, have you seen the YouTube video? And do you have any idea how this type of result is achieved? Do you think elephants can actually know what they are painting? The YT clip is quite mind boggling in how accurate the brush is placed and how detailed the result is. It almost seems impossible to be a simple case of repetition. It's almost like the old speculation about the monkeys with typewriters and unlimited time.
But, like your comment about the Orcas and their hunting technique, the things that animals can come up with by their own trial and error are so often more impressive that what humans can come up with them to do.
Ian
Ian,
The physical tricks are not difficult or harmful in themselves. The harm comes in not accepting that all of them can not do what others can, but forcing them any way in a effort to be as good of a trainer as the trainer who has the exceptional individual/individuals.
My god Ian. Look at all the video's available. There is a mahout by each elephant, real close and holding the ear(theres your clue and their cue), and often pulling them up to the pallet with their ankus. Watch the "pause" before the brush is touched to the pallet. They are waiting for the cue. Why are their paintings more realistic then, the ones of other elephants who just splotch or swirl colors like some modern art piece with the handlder holding the pallet?
Why do they not paint in the wild? Why not pick up a stick, and draw pictures in the sand at least?
If you truly understood animal behavior, your "radicalness" may not be directed at the craft/industry, but instead directed at individuals. Similar to to Olympic gymnastic coach who verbally/physically abuses his students to get the desired results to "win at all cost's".
Regards,
Wade
Wade, you are so observant when it comes to animals and their training. Louie's paintings are splotches and swirls of colors in modern or abstract art. I didn't bother to think about why the paintings of the other elephants are so much more realistic, but if I had, I would have wrongly assumed that either Louie was not as talented as the other elephants, or as mature, or that he simply preferred a different style. You are correct in that it is wrong to force those other elephants to paint, and to paint in a manner that is unnatural to them.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
If you accept animals for what they are, and not try to make them what you want, they will never disappoint you. But they will humble you, and they will humble you to the depths of your soul.
Let them be wondrous and inspiring, don't reduce them to a human level. Let them take your breath away by showing you how insignificant we truly are.
Wade
Wade, not to defend anything at all, but when it comes to naturalness, there is pretty much nothing we do with animals that IS natural. Sure, most animals stand briefly on their hind legs at times, but walking on hind legs is another thing. Using your gymnast analogy, most things that acrobats and contortionists do are highly unnatural, yet obviously physically possible. Much has been made of the cruel training of chinese children for contortion acts, but peer pressure and adult approval are the dubious motivator for Western children,m which in itself is a kind of force.
Is the unnaturalness of many 'tricks', like painting the issue? My favorite YouTube video is of Tillman, the skating bulldog. Skateboarding would never occur to a dog, but it is obvious the Tillman is enjoying himself to the max. So, just because something is unnatural is less of an issue for me than how the trick was achieved, is an unwilling animal being forced by threat of punishment day after day and what kind of a life is the animal allowed when not performing.
I only saw one of the painting videos and the mahout and ankus were not visable in that one, so it did look like magic to me.
Ian
Ian,
We can't assume something is natural or unnatural if it is able to be accomplished, human or animal. We have to accept that some can and some can't. We also can't assume that an animal is having fun doing something like the dog skateboarding because it is fun for us. Otherwise we have to assume a gymnasts is going to think a back flipping chimp/dog is having a ball also.
How was the dog trained? If it is obviously so much fun, why are more dogs not doing it? Is the dog having fun, or is he enjoying pleasing his "master"? The "reason" and the "how" are what constitute right or wrong in the training of any animal.
Wade
well, my wild animal experience is very limited, but I think it is pretty obvious when dogs are enjoying themselves in play. If you've seen the Tillman video I think you'll agree that this is play to him. Animals that do their thing in a resigned, fearful or forced manner are not at all entertaining to me regardless of how amazing the trick is.
If you haven't see the tillman video, check it out. It's something way beyond your average bear on a bicycle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQzUsTFqtW0
Ian
Ian,
The Tillman video is quite dated. Nothing to do with wild animals, but a domestic/pack animal will do anything, even committing a type of suicide to please the leader the pleasure derived from a kind word often overriding any pain in the action.
Wade
Wade, I don't get what your point is. Do you think all animal training is unjustified? Personally, I tend to think that it rarely benefits the animal involved and is most often motivated by human desires. But you seem to go between admiration for some trainers and questioning all trainers. I'm not clear where you're coming from.
I won't even have another pet dog until I can come to some kind of ethical conclusions for myself - though I'm so conflicted in this regard that I'm not sure I will ever come to a conclusion. But, I wonder about your own conclusions.
Ian
Ian,
Are we training them for a purpose, or are we training them to fool the world into thinking that "ours" is the only justified type of training, and others are wrong. And no there is nothing wonderful or noble about riding horses without bits. It might be the only way you can save his life, if something should cause him to become fearful and he should flee. It you truly care about your dog, keep him on a leash, don't remove it to show some misguided love/ability. He may panic and run into traffic.
Wade
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