For those of you who may not have understood the discussion Steve Robinson and I had a week ago about different styles of training, which has historically become known as the European style and the American style, I will let this photo illustrate.
In the 3 ring American circus there is a front of the house and a back of the house. In the 1 ring European circus the front surrounds you in a panorama, with the band traditionally being above the "back door" in this case the god awful tiger mask. To give as many people a viewing advantage as possible the pyramid/jump pedestals are set along the back wall of the cage, and the seats for the animals are are in the front, with their backs to what would be our American 3 ring circus front.
The animals are then "pushed/driven" from their seats to the back where they are blocked by the arena, and as they are blocked by the trainer from returning to said seats they get on the pedestals or jump between them if that is the required behavior. The animals move along the outside perimeter of the arena and aren't brought into the middle away from the sides very often. The style of training requires "targets" so the animals know where to go(read Heidigers book), such as floor plates or in this case the pole laying as we see in the middle of the floor. Later in the act the animals come to that pole and don't go past it, for a lay down or sit up. If not for the pole/target they would go to the back and lay down in front of the pedestals. Dickie Chipperfield from England is a master at this style of training. A nice trick I have seen in many of his acts is the animals come to floor plates/targets in the middle of the arena and sit up. The trainer then runs around to the opposite side, and the animals all spin and sit up in the opposite direction.
This act has the pedestals in the middle which requires a second person in the arena to be the blocker/wall of the arena. I personally feel it is the most stressful style for an animal as they are always looking over their shoulder as you see here, and not focusing on one person. It's is obvious who they respect the most, and he is standing behind and the women is an additional "pretty prop." If the person behind was totally inanimate like an arena wall the confusion of whats behind and whats in front would not occur as you see here. That is never the case, as each person usually thinks the other is not doing it right, and there becomes two driving forces. Imagine 2 riders on a horse with one rider saying go left, and one rider saying go right. The option is to place a target, and take away pressure when the horse finally stumbles upon it. He then learns to go straight away to the target, and have no pressure at all.
This style does not require a longer lash whip or accuracy with the whip, like the American style as it is "pushed" to a point/target, differing from the American style of "leading" the animals to a place, with the body being the point/target.
Ringling Bros. addressed the issue of blocking the view of people behind in the 3 ring format by sending the animals in through the side of the arena instead of the traditional back, and their skilled trainers were able to combine the two styles for pure magic.
Saturday, June 21, 2008
Classic example of the British/European "drive and block" style of cage acts
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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47 comments:
Wade, like I said before, I know next to zero about cats, but are the two styles typical of all European and American trainers?
I remember Dickie Chipperfield's lion act quite well and can understand a lot more what you're talking about. Kay Rosaire had a similar style with her lion act, though of course at the time I didn't think about the difference - I thought the 'chasing' was a show biz thing rather than an actual training difference. I wonder how all the whip cracking and prop banging would go over now.
Ian
Ian,
Pretty much two different ways of moving the animals given the environment of the animals entering from the back and only the back, and the one ring format or the 3 ring format. Ian the Rosaries are from England, what do you think Kay's style would be? It is not pc to try something different from the traditional ways. When Ringling sent the animals through the side of the arena is when the Baumanns and Gebels combined their European style with the American in the middle of the cage style. That was their greatness. It never dawned on anybody because they were to busy defending the skills of Joe Schmoe from the old country and old days. The whip cracking would go over great, as it does in Europe still with elephants. Problem is people, "trainers" and public think they have to hurt them with the whip, plus they don't know how to use one with out a sneer on their face. Again Ian, you can get a blood sample with a pin prick, or you can take out somebody's eye with the pin. It depends on who has the pin, and what their intentions are. No more harmful then a leash on a dog. I can walk him safety with that leash, or I can choke the life out of him. Depends on what I am, and what my intentions are.
Wade
I wasn't being critical of Chipperfield or Kay. At the time I thought it was pretty spectacular - that little (yes, she was once)lady chasing those big male lions around, and Dickie Chipperfield has a nostalgic place, since he was the first trainer I saw as a child in South Africa.
But, since I have spent a ridiculous amount of time in the audience at circuses, I know that when whips crack, whether it is in a horse act or a cat act, there are always a half dozen people who gasp and say "look at him hitting that poor animal". Since it is not possible to educate every person in the seats, perhaps it is prudent to ease up on the whip cracking.
I just had a brain freeze, but who was the trainer on Ringling who did the Freisan, Arab,zebra number? Anyway, he did a very nice demonstration in the pre-show showing the use of the whip, so at least some people came away with a better understanding. But, for the average person who has never even ridden a horse, whip = beat, like the delicious little Peta model on your other post would argue.
Ian
Ian,
Nor was I being critical of Dickie or Kay. I respect them both. I just said there are two styles and the are not better or worse then the other. Both because of the dynamics of it have spectacular and different behaviors. When the two are combined with the skill of a Baumann and Gebel and as far away from tradition as they can be the results are the things of legends.
No profession has the constant need to defend itself to anybody. It is up to them to educate themselves and not think that the owning of a dog or cat qualifies them as an animal expert. Any more then me being a Cessna pilot qualifies me to tell Chuck Yeager how to fly Mach 4.
When you state "the little thing chasing lions around" I start to think again it is a hopeless cause but I don't think so knowing what it is, practiced by qualified individuals.
A whip that cracks has not made contact with anything. A whip the is thrown and makes no crack has made contact depending on how the animal reacts is how much contact has been made. If an animal fights, or fears any part of the act/trick he was not trained properly and that goes to the individual big,small, short, tall, cute and charming, ugly and a jerk, and not the whip, hook, spurs, or bit.
Wade
Ian,
There is absolutely nothing different about tiger/lion training from dog training, horse training, elephant training, whale training or falconry. It is understanding the behaviors of the animals in relationship to the space in which they work, and if they can be touch or not touched depending on the species.
So if you know dog training you also know tiger training, and sea lion training. If you don't none of them will make sense.
Wade
Wade - to the "European" and "American" styles we may need to add the "Australian" style ...... a combination of the two.
Aussie circuses are usually one-ringers with the cats entering the ring either through, or adjacent to, the back door. They cross the ring to be seated at the front with their backs to the audience. Large [pyramid, plank, jump] props are located in the centre of the ring and the cats are drawn from their seats and then pushed to the required prop. These large props are then stacked at the outer perimeter of the arena to free up the centre area for lie-downs, roll-overs etc. I have always drawn lions from their seats and then around in a U route to face the audience for a lay down and then, with a combination of drawing and pushing, straightened them up. After a lot of repetition they learned exactly where I wanted that line and would form it of their own accord. That is because, here at the bottom of the world, I had never seen how the Poms and the Yanks did it. Then I employed a European to break and work an act and he used the plank to line them up and got the job done in half the time!
As a matter of course I always broke them to enter the arena from the right side OR the left side of the back door so that they could always get in, no matter what the outside layout of the lot was. A couple of weeks ago I saw an act where a trainer had to bring his cats into the ring from the opposite to what they were used to - it was a bloody shambles!
Regarding the use of the whip - I am in awe of masters of the instrument who can flick a fly from the back of an elephant with it. But that is NOT me! So I have never worked an act with a whip. Admittedly that also restricts a little what tricks I can train. However, I agree with Ian - the vast majority of our paying customers [punters] cringe at the use of the whip these days. You will probably argue that that is because we as trainers have never been open and honest with them in generations past about whipcraft and I agree with that. I just think that we've left it far too late to educate them now. It also does not help that, among elephant trainers particularly, we have far too many suffering from the "little man/big whip" syndrome. Until recently we had one bloke in this country who would spend his entire act cracking a bloody great bull-whip all over his elephants in a moronic, macho display. The audiences were not so stupid that they could not see the elephants wincing - even though you and I know that they were not being hurt.
"There is absolutely nothing different about tiger/lion training from dog training, horse training, elephant training, whale training or falconry."
When I was fooling around with the "biz" the greatest magic came the first time an animal did it by himself - the first time a horse goes to his knees with just a touch - amazes me every time.
But, as far as the differnce between dogs and tigers, I can hold a dog's front feet up to teach a sit up, or lead him to his seat on a leash. It would seem that tigers would be a whole other other thing, and still very mysterious to me.
Ian
Very interesting stuff, Steve. Are there many big cat acts in Australia?
The dumbest things I ever saw were dog acts worked with a riding whip. Didn't the performers know how the average dog owner in the audience percieves that?
Ian
Ian,
Again not for nothing, but the average dog owner with one dog doesn't have a clue what it takes to keep a dozen loose in the ring working and doing tricks. I recently saw a dog act with 6 dogs do a complete liberty horse act, complete with waltzes, wheels and bows with the trainer standing at the back of the ring cueing them with body shifts and the crop in his hand. It looked damn sharp and not one person noticed the crop. Like a whip if the animals are actually doing something and doing it without debate, it is not noticed. You do not need a lash whip for 8 or less animals. 10 or more and it is necessary as you can't cover that much area. Crack a whip at one animal to sit up and it is pretty obvious, crack it at 15, 16, 20 or 21 and it's pretty moot to the audience. A mirrored ball will never be better received then a well done hind leg walk. A mirrored ball is used by many lacking the skills instead of a hind leg. After you have ran out of places to sit them up for the 10 time, a mirrored ball is the logical solution. That's what it is. The exception being Charlies 3 mirrored balls which pistoned up and down as well as turning. That is difficult because you have to do more then just walk around spinning the whip over your head, or stand with one toe pointed with your arm in the air. The body goes up and down as well as around. Again a level beyond the realm of most.
The horse trainer you mention is Sasha Houcke. His daughter was Sara Houcke the "tiger whisperer." He is a great horse trainer, spending a lot of time with the Knies. He is even more accomplished back in Europe with the one ring format, and the dirt/shavings footing.
No offense just something to think about. Maybe because you can lift a dog into a sit up you "think" surely you must have to be hard on a tiger to make him sit up. If I can get a tiger to sit up with out touching him at all, I'll bet you could do the same with a dog. Think about it, study the animal. Don't look for the answer in a book because it is not there. When you do that you are on the way to becoming an animal trainer.
Steve,
I have never seen or used a bull whip as it has as much use in animal training as a cricket bat on a golf course. They are for cutting paper or cigarettes out of somebody's mouth and making noise. I suggest that fellow was one of many who should not have been allowed in the door, but I can only assume the "price was right", and we have paid dearly for that fallacy.
How fast or how quick has nothing to do with the training of an animal. With a standard it is how well and that takes time. Why is it easier to seat the animals in the front, and why does it not take as much skill to work an act designed that way? In a three ring format it is an unwritten sin to sit or line your animals up with their backs to the front of the house or there would be a lot more doing it that way because of the ease. Do your other animals horses, elephants, dogs, chimps, bears, etc. not line up and stand at the same place they enter? Why do only the European felines line up opposite of where they enter?
Wade
Ian,
You mentioned the lay down being difficult? It is the second thing a feline is taught given its ease and is used to teach them to come to you. It is not a true behavior. It is the start and finish of a ground sit up. On an equine high school scale, I would rate it with putting the saddle on. I would rate a pyramid or plank walk with putting the bit in his mouth.
Wade
Wade - I have no idea why our cats traditionally are trained to present their butts to the most expensive seats! As a matter of fact this can cause some some embarrasment ...... to the trainer. I was working too close [and too inattentively] to a lion one day who managed to hook me in the hand. Involuntarily I exclaimed "shit" at the shock and the pain. A very well dressed patron in ringside who could not see what had happened because the cat's body blocked her view, subsequently strongly complained to door staff about the uncouth language of the trainer!
Ian - there are not many cat acts in this country because there are no trainers left in this country.
Mr. Robinson,
I am guessing the isn't much demand for trainers there or there would be more. If there were money in it, people would learn to do it. The same is the case here. As it sits now, no one in there right mind would learn how to do this, for what is paid to do it. Hence it is down to left overs of the golden era, and second generationals, like Adam, Brian Franzen, Clayton Rosaire, and myself.
Steve,
I don't understand what you mean by entering either on the left or the right sided of the back door. In a one ring format is the back door not always is the same place?
Wade
Casey,
And I personally feel I have failed Adam, you, and every other youngster who has followed in the profession in that regard. Accept that I gave it my best effort, starting in 1978 when I walked away from a $50.00 dispute to 2008 when I attempted to address the issue on 2 circus blogs, and nobody would come near it. The "big one" actually shut me down the second time I tried to readdress it. As you know I will be going to other employment in three weeks and I will miss training tigers very much. But my passion for the craft does not aid my 2 sons in college. As I have told Adam, love and cherish it as long as you can afford to, but as the cost of living goes up, you may not be able to survive on that love and passion for long.
Wade
Wade - yep, the backdoor is always in the same place but the cat cage outside could be anywhere due to the lot layout.
So the tunnel could have to come into the tent from the left or the right or, on some occasions, I've had to bring it in from the side like what you were describing at Ringlings. It doesn't always get to come in nice and neatly through the back door.
Casey - same here. If we did this just for the money well we wouldn't be doing it. A lot of our circuses over here ran away from cat acts to try to escape the heat from the AR people. Didn't work because the ARs then targetted their domestic animal acts [so they still got the heat] and the public demanded exotic animals in the circus. While this was going on none of the younger generation was learning how to work animals and discovered that there were easier ways of making a buck.
The circuses that still have cat acts are doing great business because they are catering to the public's demand - but with no new trainers coming along it is becoming a seller's market. That is why we are framing a lion act for spot date bookings.
Steve,
I am still confused. What cat cage outside? In 33 years I can think of maybe a dozen times when the animals came in straight. The rest of the time they were T'd, L'd, Z,d, and some creative "formations". When you come in the side was just the chute door moved to the side, or was the front of the house now the side? I think Casey's next question will be, "good for the Circus, but how are the cat trainers making out, in proportion to other jobs, cost of living in Australia, experience etc. etc." I think that's what a lot of young people looking for a career are interested in today. I know I was in 1975, and this deal looked pretty good. I even assumed it would be great it you were able to become real good.
Wad
Wade
Whoa Whoa Whoa,
Something must have been misinterpreted. I am doing it "for the money". I enjoy training animals. I train cats on a circus because it pays good rite now. I do not enjoy it enough to do it for a lesser wage. I am afraid part of the problem is that there are plenty of people who want to do it bad enough they will do it for near nothing (they have little invested in their career)
Keep us posted on the lion act please.
There is no way that I am qualified to enter the debate about styles, but allow me to provide some information.
The presenter in the photo is Mary Chipperfield, who is Dickie's cousin.
These days Dickie spends a lot of time on Cirque Pinder in France, providing help and advice for Frederic Edelstein who shows his own lions on the show, which is owned by his father, Gilbert. This year, Sasha Houcke is also on Pinder. Daughter Sarah is in France with Cirque Arlette Gruss. In November/December, both Pinder and Gruss will be on much the same lot in Paris.
John.
Jeez Wade, it's only Monday and this subject's off the page already. That other Blog has got good long front pages![lol]
Your confusion about the outside cat cage[s] stems from one of the several differences in how circuses operate in our two countries. We haven't kept cats in little shifting cages for 40 years or more. By law, the smallest space for 4 cats [lions or tigers] was 40' by 8' which equals a normal size semi-trailer. On many lots you just can't place a rig like that exactly where you would prefer it to be. So you place it where you can and you run the tunnel from it to the ring. Sometimes you hit the jackpot and you get your tunnel right through the back door, other times you've got to come in from left or right adjacent to the back door and, if Murphy is having a great day, your semi is out to the side of the tent somewhere and your tunnel has to come in through the seats!
Front of house doesn't move, just the chute door which explains why I've always figured that it pays to break your cats to come in and go to their seats from any angle.
By the way, I said that 40' by 8' WAS the legal size. The legal size to keep big cats in a circus in Australia now is 20 square metres for the first cat and 10 square metres for each additional cat which means that demountable exercise arenas are compulsory - you can't just keep your cats in a vehicle any more. I look at Casey's tiger cage photos on his Blog and think how great it would be to have something as easy as that to get your cats in and out of the ring.
Funny you should have figured back in 1975 that cat training could have been a pretty good career. Here in Australia we used to figure that if we were any good we would go to America and become stars! You got closer to it than we did!
John,
You are as qualified as anybody, if you learn the dynamics of an act.
I had no idea who was presenting this act, but I assumed it was Clubb/Chipperfield trained just at what I was looking at. And have always contended that the styles are individual and not European or American. I hope to explain why the European Style is not a gentler style as has been wrongly assumed for decades, hopefully not offending anybody but educating as Ian and others have suggested.
This is a question for you and anybody else with no experience other then a pet animal and for Steve, Casey and anybody else who has worked with animals.
The question is: Is it easier to get an animal to come to you or to go away? How would you get it to come to you, and how would you get it to go away? What action do you assume is the most mentally stressful for any animal. The action of coming to you or the action of chasing away?
Wade
Wade, since this is a question that can be answered by anybody with no experience other than a pet animal (I currently have three domestic cats), I will answer this from my own point of view. It is definitely easier to get the cats to come to me than to go away. I get them to come to me by calling their names (yes, cats will come if called), or offering food, affection, grooming ("brush"), toothbrushing ("teeth"), or anything else that they enjoy (positive stimulus). I get them to go away by using a negative stimulus, such as "get out of there!" if they are in a closet where they don't belong. They actually become resistant if I attempt to "herd" them to the front of the house at bedtime. I assume that the action of chasing away (negative)is more mentally stressful than the action of coming to me (positive).
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
You are close. But don't think of a cat that is your pet. Think of a bear/unfamiliar animal appearing in your yard. Would it be easier to get him to come to you or to go away from you?
How long would it take to get him to "come right now" and how long would it take to get him to "go right now?"
Wade
Wade, thinking of an unfamiliar animal appearing in my yard, it would it be easier to get him to go away from me than to come to me. It would take a very long time to get him to "come right now" and not long at all to get him to "go right now." I believe that the action of chasing away is easier for the person to achieve but more mentally stressful to the animal, and the action of coming to the person is more difficult for the person to achieve but less stressful to the animal.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
Bingo and spot on. Yet one style has be perceived as being gentler then the other. The long lash whip which is necessary to bring an animal to you if you are standing 15 foot away is the culprit. To approach an animal and chase it the long whip for reach is not necessary. You can chase it to a target with two sticks or a stick and a short whip.
Wade
Wow,
Now we are getting somewhere. All we need now is some profilac-o-blah blah space. I am glad we are straight on the come here is harder then go away. Not just for unfamiliar animals either. Mrs. Howell, I would suggest it may be easier to get your cats to come rather then go, because they aren't asked to do anything when they get there. As opposed to telling a cat to come here, and lay down in between these to grouchy older cats, or come here and jump over this other cat. There is a huge difference between animals playing, and animals working. Thats not to say animals despise working, however getting them to come to what they perceive as a new, scarey place can test the amount of trust the animal has in you. I am learning this on a daily basis.
Casey,
You and Ian are making me nuts here. You can not pick a side you must stay in the middle and then decide. Mary Ann answered a question posed to her. My question to you. You mention that animals don't despise working? Does that mean that they like it?
Wade
yes,
I believe some do enjoy it.
Casey,
"Assuming" that "some" do enjoy working, what are you referring to as "work"? And what about the "ones" that don't enjoy work?
Wade
If an animal despises going in and doing an act or other task on a show, to the point that it is a battle daily to get the task done, I think it should be left the hell alone. I think this is obvious with alot of circus elephants now days. First allowing 25 different "goofs" cause the elephant to become "sour" by being inconsistent, then riding the elephants ass for the rest of the time for trying to get out of doing the task cause it has come to hate doing it.
Casey,
I ask you what "work" it was that "some" animal enjoyed doing?
Wade
I have had many animals that anxiously anticipated performing. I think most animals that have not had more negatives then positives in their training and working, will enjoy the interaction and rewards. My trash can dog Twyla would howl and jump for 15 mins prior to (she could tell by the music in the show)going to do the act. At the KC zoo last summer I watched a seal performing behaviors 5 mins before the trainer stepped down to the tank with his bucket of fish, I take that to mean the seal enjoyed performing, because he received a reward after each trick.
Casey,
So now am I to assume that "some do enjoy work" to mean "anxiously anticipated performing?" And is that what is meant by "work"? Did Twylia, a pack/gregarious animal anticipate performing, or did she enjoy being with her Alpha, and noted changes in her environment that indicated that you would be coming soon,as they are creatures of habit, instead of the music?
If you are going to accept those "human like" qualities you have to accept an animal rights activist's interpretation of what is "animals rights."
Jim Alexander may have more qualified thoughts on the the sea lion, but I suggest like a child doing anything to get your attention or treat in this case thats what he was doing. I also suggest if that occurred 5 min. before the trainer appeared he was alot keener then was necessary. Do you really comprehend operant conditioning? I'm talking the pistons and camshafts.
Wade
I may not have phrased that rite with eagerly anticipated, but I am pretty sure I have a full comprehension of Operant Conditioning, I used it often with parrots and even with small rodents for film. Which pistons or camshafts are you asking about? Mr. Alexander would be driving a Negative Punishment/ model seen often with birds, and marine mammals. This is rewards being taken away to stop undesired behavior, and of course, rewarded again when the desired behavior starts. This is, as you have noted in the past, because birds fly and seals swim away. Where you and I are driving more of a Positive Punishment model, where something undesirable to the animal is started when it presents a behavior other then what is desired, then is rewarded for the desired behavior. Yes they are the same idea, but they are different as well. Both of these require a Positive Reinforcement. However there is a fourth option known as Negative Reinforcement, which is taking away something undesired to the animal, when it performs the desired behavior. This I believe plays a large role in horse riding and "European style" driven cat acts.
Now you can tell me I am wrong, but I won't be.
Addendum:
Wade,
We saw the early performing seal completely different. You thought he was keener then needed be. I just assumed the other seals might have beat him out of his share of dinner the night before.
Casey,
The pistons and camshaft is why it works, not that it works. We know it works, but why?
Spurs are the removing of something that is uncomfortable for training but not riding. Like banging the top or side of a cage to move a tiger out. It can be as simple as stepping towards an animal and stepping back as he responds, or as severe as a hotshot.
Wade
Wade,
Do you really comprehend operant conditioning?
I think you have your spark plugs and ignition confused with the camshaft and pistons. The spurs and hot shot same as moving body or banging seat top or cage? Here is the "why" you want. Spurs, hot shot, snip with whip: immediate response reaction they don't have to learn anything, it hurts so they move away from the pain. Banging cage or seat, cracking whip, this is secondary punishment. A bridge between the cue and the punishment. Much the same as the word good or a click goes between the animal performing desired behavior and receiving the reward (also a bridge) The banging/cracking sound might get a immediate flight reaction a few times, but unless the animal learns that something unpleasant will follow the sound, the fear of the sound will wear off and mean nothing. So I suggest the spurs/hot shot have little in common with banging the seat or moving your body. Spurs/hot shot make the animal move then stop when the animal starts. Banging seat/ moving body tell the animal "you better move or something will follow this"
Casey,
The buzz of the hotshot is the bang on the cage. If they don't move from the bang whats the next logical step.
The spurs start with a pressure from the calf, moving to a slight touch of the ankle/side of the foot, to a slight bump.
Moving back up the leg to the eventual incredible squeeze of the seat bones. Moving back down if necessary. And it rarely is if done right, unless you need the action "right now."
Wade
Casey and Wade,
I would say that tapping on the cage, a shout, stepping in, would be a negative reinforcement -- something that stops when the desired behavior occurs. I get a negative reinforcement when I turn off my car and leave the lights on; the little ding, ding, ding, until I flip the switch. When you start talking punishment you're kicking it up mega-notchs. If you follow training terminology (and talk like a space pilot) punishment is an aversive event that follows the behavior and causes the behavior to decrease in frequency. To maximize the effect of punishment it should be used every time the behavior occurs. The reality is that most of us don't use punishment (by definition) very often and use negative reinforcement a lot. The use of a lot of positive reinforcement (just not a lot of dukies) and a little negative reinforcement (so you don't wear it out or desensitize) usually works. Now when they're chewing on you, go get'em.
Spurs, hotshot -- stimulus/response, returning either to a neutral state, assuming the desired response, or a positive state if the response is followed with a reward. Classic conditioning. Any kind of operant conditions implies that the animal initiates the behavior anticipating a specific payoff, whether a return to a neutral state or praise/reward. There's a self motivating factor in the behavior, because it's a "learned" behavior rather than merely a reactive behavior.
Just a quickie, not much time at the moment - Casey's comment about the anticipatory seal draws attention to a common situation. I have had dogs and ponies eagerly [and I DO mean eagerly] anticipate working, cued by the music of preceding acts in the show. I have an old male lion who does not work but who roars as soon as he hears the overture [analyse that one as you may] and the best I have ever seen was at Perth Zoo, some years ago. The same Mr Lee Sambrook whose Whipsnade Zoo herd is currently on Buckles' Blog, had the herd there of 2 juvenile cows and a juvenile bull. Each day they put on a display which included seesaw, log rolling and pulling, situps, legstands etc. One day the kids were playing in the pool and having a wow of a time while the keepers brought in the props for the display. Without any cueing, the punks got themselves out of the water and went through a lot of their routine [including the bull back and forward on the seesaw] before the keepers had finished setting up. The keepers then had to work a routine that a lot of the audience had just already seen!
That same Mr Sambrook was eventually driven out of Perth by AR agitators pressuring a very weak zoo management. Perth's loss was Whipsnade's gain.
No time to add to the rest of the discussion.
Jim and Ben,
Maybe I should preface this by saying I only condone the use of a hot shot for the quick moving of herd animals in a controlled chute/pen system.
Spurs are the hook for an elephant. Because you are in the middle of the horse you have no need for a hook, as you push the direction you need, to don't pull. Because and elephant can not be pulled or held with a halter or rope the spur becomes a hook/or rope and halter/leash and collar on a dog.
Applying slight negative stimulus, steadily increasing it is why, doing it fast or quick is so barbaric. Instead of progressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 there is a tendency to progress 1,3,7. and you get the result, when possibly 3 was all that was necessary. Once you get to 7 you have no place humanely to go, and you are in real trouble as that is your ace in the hole, and you have exposed it. As I am Jim stated, it starts from the approach, or squeeze of the calf, going to the bang on the cage, or bump with the ankle, to the poke with the stick, or the poke with the spur. If you keep that consistency day in and day out and the negative is applied as quickly as the reward, you never have to go near 7, and it is there like an emergency shut of.
Do something wrong, like leave the key on, and your "animal" might not perform as it should.
Wade
Steve,
I was waiting for you to confirm as Casey already has. You mention punks. Were they working or playing on the props. Give a punk a tire, are they working or playing. They were tired of playing in the water and they wanted to play on something else.
You and Casey both mention herd and pride animals who learned to seek and anticipate the reward of a treat or a good boy pat. Most importantly animals in confinement who anticipate getting out of that confinement. Why must felines often be prodded. Turn those dogs and pony's loose in 25 acres, let the dynamics of herd/pack dominance establish a new leader, turn the music on and see it they come with anticipation at show time.
Lions roar for a reason that 50 people, expert's and non experts can not agree on. I have noted it occurring with the most frequency in the early morning/early evening who knows why? Did your lion anticipate the show, or want to get it done with so he would be left alone? How does a liberty horse find its place?
Cow come in at a set time to be milked as they have been conditioned that the unpleasant pressure of a full bag will be relieved, and they will be fed. How does a cow find it's stanchion among 100 places. How can it be removed from the herd and years later be brought back and find it's stanchion.
Wade
Mr. Alexander,
I was using negative punishment as being as release of the punishment, and positive punishment as the addition of punishment. Not negative as in not pleasant, but negative as in removal there of. ie I want the elephant to pick up its foot, I say "foot" apply stimulus with the hook until it's foot is raised to a certain point that has been set as such. the release of the pressure from the hook would be negative punishment and in a sense the reward to the animal for finishing the behavior. A negative reinforcement would be throwing fish to a sea lion as he approached a target only to stop throwing them if he strayed from the right path. The removal of the reward would then be a negative reinforcement.
Casey,
So if I am understanding this right, for the people who carry a whip and or hook but don't use it to hit or touch the animal, which leads to "why have it in your hand then", the response, "it's used for positive punishment", might be a more appropriate patch?
Wade
Wade,
YOU ARE RITE. REPEAT:YOU ARE RITE,
The hook is a poor example of negative, because it is added, hence positive. Negative punishment would be more along the lines of, the removal of something the animal desired. If you had 5 dogs in an outside run and one of the dogs kept instigating a fight, so he is put in a crate. The punishment would be his loss of freedom in the outside yard. I assume this works with marine mammals being uncooperative, or unruly by removing them from a tank where they are being trained as well.
Casey,
I know I am. That's why I always say negative does not need to be pain or discomfort as is thought. It can often be just as effective to punish mentally with the withholding of something desirable. A pig named AC turned that light on in my head. When I was teaching him to carry liter bottles/cans and drop them in a recycling bin, he would sometimes drop it against the top and it would fall out. He would run back to my fist/target for his Capt. Crunch or Apple Chrisp and when I wouldn't give it to him, pitch a royal fit. Scream, squeal, spin, buck, every thing short of gagging. He had "assumed" he had assumed he had completed the assignment, as he heard the plastic hit plastic. I discovered he was turning his head slightly to look at me, in anticipation of the reward, which caused the bottle to fall out instead of in. He was more interested in the reward then completing the assignment and was rushing to get it. Like a wide receiver taking his eye off the ball, and running for a touchdown and dropping the ball. I thought I could correct this by putting one reward in the recycling bin, and give another one when he came back to me. Buggers are smart and he quickly learned to pick up the bottle carry it half way, drop it and run to the box for the reward. Which wasn't what I wanted either. I then realized I had been using the "target", my closed fist with the reward to get the pigs to follow. And I was holding the target at my side when I sent him out to get the bottle and carry it and was leaving the target exposed. I remembered watching Bill Roberts from Marineland train dolphins. He would expose the target to come and remove it and send them with a hand signal to go. I learned to send him, step to his right hip and "hide" the target behind my back. By stepping to his right hip this kept his head straight, and he learned to stand straight over the box, and "momentarily wait", as he did not know where the target was. When I brought my hand/target back to my side, he would drop the object, and come to the target/reward. Once I understood, me not being as smart as him, he learned that the sound of plastic on plastic was the same in the middle of the box, and that that was the whole point and Air Canada hit it 100%.
Force becomes a crutch when an animal is contained/confined. It is easy to shank a horse too much when he has a lead rope on. Learn how to shank them with nothing on and you would be amazed at how close they pay attention. They don't want to take their eyes of you.
Wade
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