As discussed in the past there are varying degrees/types of crossed eyes. I have only seen once what Rewati exhibits here. The eyes "sunk in" as well as crossed was Frosty's affliction also. Consider that Rewati was the only survivor of a litter of 5, and was hand raised. Her brother Moni was the only survivor of a litter of two, and I also assume was hand raised. Frosty was also hand raised, as were a vast majority of the white tigers in the early days. Are the better eyes of today the result of better breeding, or the result of proper nutrition from the mother. I don't know if any research has been done addressing that or if the assumption of inbreeding was a logical answer. I wish Paul McCarthy, who has nothing to do in Canada except eat Macintosh toffee and receive free medical, and would have more time then me would research and see what he could find on any nutritional studies that have been done, looking at the possibility of that playing a part in the eyes. I guarantee a majority of the Siberian births of old were also hand raised.
Saturday, May 17, 2008
Rewati--Daughter of Mohini/Grand daughter of Mohan
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Wade G. Burck
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Nutritional question is a good one, though if nutrition rather than genetics is a controlling factor, wouldn't similar eye problems outside white tiger lines in all bottled raised tigers? Just playing Devil's Advocate with that. In fact what I really wonder is whether the genetic bottleneck in aberrant lines doesn't predispose to nutritional disorders during bottle raising. Saw a white male cub die during a seizure this week from a sodium deficiency this week. As this cub was the result of an unintentional brother/sister mating and the adults were likely the product of close breeding by a private breeder it's hard to know what health issues are strictly natural and what issues are a matter of nurturing.
I got into big trouble twenty years ago at a herpetology conference when I suggested that a friend who was then breeding for color mutions in snakes at Woodland Park was really engaged in creating "poodles." Unfortunately the commercial incentive for breeding for aberrants is enormous, while they are valueless in terms of species conservation. (In species conservation reproducing locality populations while preserving diversity makes more sense.) What I wonder is this... at Hawthorn and elsewhere there are some robust white tiger lines, while in the "big cat mills" there are some pretty screwed up lines. What are we learning from mutated lines that we can use in preserving healthy "normal" tiger lines? This is a loaded question since it could probably be argued that virtually all of the captive tiger lines and certainly the captive lion lines have been pretty were pretty well mucked up a long time ago.
Ben
Rewati was not the only survivor of a litter of five, Moni was. Rewati I believe had one orange female littermate which did'nt survive. In the case of Moni I think there were three white males and two orange females, and Mohini crushed several of them. I have wondered whether nutrition and hand rearing play a role in crossed eyes. I once that that star-gazers were cross eyed. I'm pretty sure that what's going on with white tigers and crossed eyes is the same as with Siamese cats and albino ferrets. I'm 99% sure that the Maharaja of rewa and the Bristol Zoo never had any cross eyed specimens in their collections. Did Mary Ann send you these pictures from Smithsonian magazine? Why don't you post the ones of the Bristol Zoo white tigers?
PS: Rewati was also Mohini's grand daughter. Mohini was Mohan's daughter and grand daughter.
Ben,
Good questions. I will try to respond, in pieces. I am not suggesting that hand rearing is the cause, rather could it be a contributing factor. The genes for crossed eyes are there, is the nutritional imbalance encouraging it,is what I am asking. It is easier to debate, when you can say, "wait, what do you mean" is it not?
Wade
Seems within the realm of possibility that if you have a tiger cub homozygous for crossed eyes, that the severity of the problem might be tied to neonatal nutrition. Thus, a tiger raised "naturally" might be mildly crossed eyed due to genetics, while a bottle raised cat ends up profoundly cross eyed due to genetics AND nutrition... though line breeding cross-eyed cats would probably lead to profoundly impaired cats down the road, even with the best nutrition.
Ben,
In regards to the different colors, I felt the same way when the first "snow white" was born, leading up to the Tabbys. And was chastised for equating it to guppies or Bettas. Josip and I are friends,and respect each other and I think friends should be able disagree/debate on their philosophies or opinions and still stay friends.
I can't disagree with a commercial gain in the color strains of any animal, as I can't disagree completely with mink/tiger breeding farms. It could be argued that we are learning something from the breeding of different strains of color.
What do you think of the "shadow striping" on Ligers and Tabbys.
Wade
I spend most of my day fighting off attacks by bands of savage wild Eskimos and polar bears.
Wade, this is where it all gets interesting from a philosophical point of view. Breeding to create aberrant lines always starts with animals with naturally occurring mutations. And certainly natural selection has rewarded some of those mutations in locality populations. Melanistic mutations for example in the moths of industrial Britain of the 19th Century is the classic tale of natural selection -- and melanistic groups, whether squirrels, or big cats, or rattlesnakes do well in the natural environment, so the mutation is a plus and becomes part of the norm. Naturally occurring albinos or amelanistic mutations rarely enjoy the same success, so outside of extremely isolated populations or nurtured populations there aren't a hell of a lot of white tigers or white pythons.
I don't have a problem with a commercial enterprise breeding for color variation, I'm just not sure that it should ever have been the "mission" of any zoo. As with all things animal the waters get muddied when the "sanctuaries" take animals bred for specific commercial purposes and start churning them out so that everybody can get their picture taken with a white tiger, or a liger, or a Tabby, or whatever. I don't even want to think how many fucked up cats with healthy problems there are languishing in "rescue" operations around the country.
Ben
Paul,
In regards to Moni and Rewati and their siblings, I stand corrected, I was referencing the graph in the SMITHSONIAN article. My patch is it was very late and I was tired and didn't see right. LOL But in looking at it again, it appears to me that Rewati had one gold sibling that died, and Moni had one white sibling that died, and three normal colored animals that aren't connected to anybody? There is a hole punched over the line of the 3 gold animals? Is that the link, and on my reference it was obliterated. I am going to post the picture of the Bristol offspring as obviously the eyes have been "fixed" after the photo.
Wade
That is an error in the Smithsinian article. I am sure that Moni had two white and two orange littermates and I'm 90% sure they were three white males and two orange females. I'm sure Mary Ann would know.
Paul, I just got out the chart Dr. John Seidensticker sent me in 1997 with the handwritten note "Mary Ann, This is our most complete genealogy. John". This chart shows that the litter contained Moni, another white male and three hetero females. The other white male and two of the hetero females were crushed by Mohini. One hetero female was stillborn.
Mary Ann
Paul and Mary Ann,
I have always questioned the necessity of keeping dead individuals on a pedigree, if they did not contribute genetically. I think it confuses and already confused issue. Keep a separate list to show the productivity of a dam, or the potency of a sire if necessary. But unless it has made a contribution, really of what use is it.
Wade
Wade, sometimes it's what is not on the charts that tells as much as what is. "This most complete genealogy" does not show the matings of Bharat and Priya to Suyra. Bharat's kids (heteros) grew up and lived their lives at the National Zoo, but Priya's kids (also heteros) went out the back door to animal dealers.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
With the exception of Ika, very little left Hawthorn until the early 90's. With the exception of the "loan" of Silver in 82. If anybody had anything, it was gotten from the zoo's who had them.
Wade
Wade, heteros have been going out to animal dealers even before the National Zoo. Paul pointed out to me that the Maharajah of Rewa sent a few of Mohan and Begum's hetero offspring to an animal dealer in Calcutta, and this is documented both in the Leipzig Zoo International Tiger Studbook, and in Dr. Roychoudhury's chapter in Tigers of the World. It is when these heteros or their offspring show up somewhere else and start throwing whites that everyone gets excited about "new lines."
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
You are absolutely right. You don't know how many "phantom" lines there are in the United States.
Wade
Wade I'm sorry this is the one I was talking about. And I see that B.E. Trimble was addressing the very same question. I had long suspected that nutrition might have something to do with crossed eyes in big cats after I first learned about star-gazing and had the mistaken idea that was strabismus. I know that Rewati, pictured here, was handreared. Sincerely Paul
Wade, I was just rereading everything that you and B.E. Trimble had to say on the subject. It's extremely interesting and I would research it further if I knew where to look. Where's Mary Ann? Sincerely Paul
This is it at the very bottom you talk about Siberian tigers being handreared. Sorry to waste your time. Sincerely Paul PS Obviously tiger milk is best.
Paul,
I have been wondering the same thing about Mary Ann. I must email her this evening.
Nothing will ever replace a mothers milk for any member of an animal species, especially colostrum. I think they have become very close to a "reasonable facsimile" for humans, given the ease of which to collect and replicate. Additionally, I have found that there are "behavioral" differences, in a hand raised/mother raised animal. A mother raised animal nurses for short periods, through the day and night, to consume the same amount of nutrition that a hand raised animal consumes quickly in less nursing. I have never seen a distended stomach in a mother raised animal, yet it is the norm for a hand reared animal. Nutrition is given quickly so we can move on to other things in our busy day. A natural mother has nothing to do but devote to the baby. It can consume a small amount, then sleep, knowing there will be more available when it wakes up.
Wade
Wade, Thank you for the reply. I wonder whether some other problems with white tigers are also nutritional like crooked spines or sway back. Rewati also had a crooked spine. I'm pretty sure that Robert Baudy told me that. He bred Rewati to an Amur tiger, but she did'nt conceive. In fact I think that John Cuneo told me that some other problems are nutritional resulting from overfeeding white tiger cubs. When I was looking at these older posts I see I have been repeating myself. I have a terrible memory. I will also e-mail Mary Ann. Sincerely Paul
Is B.E. Trimble an author? Does he work for a zoo? Why is that name so familiar? Sincerely Paul
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