Monday, May 12, 2008
Bagheera and Herta Cuneo 1974-- Baniff National Park--Filming "Where the Northwind Blows"
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Wade G. Burck
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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45 comments:
Wade, was this a movie, a documentary, or what?
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
I believe it was a movie, but it never made the theaters. One of those low budget deals. Not like the "epic" I did with Dianna Thorne.
Wade
Will you post some pictures of Ural, Sheba, Prince, and Saber?
Wade-If Bagheera was in the Banff Springs National Park making a movie in 1974 she could'nt have been born after John Cuneo bought Tony. Is it possible she was born in 1972 or was the movie made after 1974? Frosty was born in 1975. I knew some guys who worked at the hotel in Banff Springs whaen we were in college. They said it's haunted, but I guess all hotels are supposed to be.
Paul,
Often in circus tales, unless there is a specific month, often Jan/Feb. is reference to the year before, and often Nov/Dec. is reference to the year approaching. I think it has to do with dates you are working at the time, if that makes sense. Anything before 1976 I have suggested that you be suspect of, only because I have seen records/names "change" for convenience or validity. The picture is dated 1974. In 1976 when we did the Dianna Thorne "documentary", I was told, "we did a movie last year with Baggy, when she was a year old." Again what I was told, "Bagheera was born a couple of weeks after John bought Tony. I don't know if that meant the day they "shook" hands, or the day Hawthorn actually took possession of him.
Wade
Then she must have been born in 1975. Is it possible that Bagheera and Frosty were littermates?
Paul,
More "what I was told". Frosty was born a few months after Bagheera. In between the births, Prince and Saber were castrated. Bagheera was immediatly taken for hand raising, and Sheba was but back with Prince Sabre and Begum. Prince and Sabre were castrated as there was a lot of fighting. Frosty is born. When I first went to work for John Cuneo, I ask who the father was of the two, and was told, "we are not sure", maybe Ural because he has crossed eyes.
Wade
I guess he castrated the goose that was laying the golden eggs. Could you judge from looking at them who was likely to be the father? Did it seem like they were more than half Siberian? If Ural had long matted fur maybe he just needed a bath and a hair cut. He would have been 18 when you first saw him.
Paul,
As I have stated in the past, with respect, physically Bagheera and Frosty were not good specimens. The worst crossed eyes you can imagine. I don't think that line was necessary with Tony on the scene, although as stated his straight eyes occasionally sired bad eyes, and Ari crossed eyes, sired straight on occasion. I initially "assumed" Prince, as Frosty was very similar to him in physical features. It was suspect, as the Tabbys with manes are. Ural was just a defective animal, who would not even groom himself. Many pure Siberians back then were extremely inbred, in this case truly inbred as there were not many individuals in captivity. Once ISIS was formed, and stud book details really kept, led by the Minnesota zoo here and Prof. Dr. Seifert at the Leipzig most of that was "fixed."
Wade
Was Frosty also cross eyed? Which one is that in the picture of the cross eyed white tiger's face in the Sports Illustrated, do you remember?
Paul,
Frosty was severely cross eyed. One of the worst I was around. Worse they went two different directions. Yes that is him in the Sports Illustrated article. Ural was very cross eyed, but the looked towards the nose. That's why I think Ural was a convenient "patch."
Wade
Wade-What unrelated orange tigresses was Tony bred to and what became of the cubs? How many of these orange cubs of Tony were cross eyed? I'm 99% sure the Maharaja of Rewa never had any cross eyed white tigers in his collection. Have you seen the old issue of Life magazine from Oct. 1951 with pictures of Mohan and the Maharaja when he was trying to find a buyer for Mohan?
Paul,
Of hand without looking Baby, Kashmir, Rhoni. Tony later developed a cataract in his left eye due to an injury, and Hawthorn has had 6 cases that I know of of cataracts. Kabul developed a cataract in one eye when he was a 2 year old, and later developed a cataract in the other eye leading to total blindness. None of Tony's gold offspring that I recall were cross eyed. Most of our crossed eyes came from Frosty, with a very small number from Ari. Historically crossed eyes were an occasional trait in early captive Siberian tigers. I believe the gene came with the Sioux Falls tigers, and I also believe it is Siberian and not White. Also, did not some of the straight Rewa tigers start to have an eye problem. After they were out of the Maharajahs hands. I seem to recall that.
Wade
Wade, I am very sorry to hear that Kabul went blind from cataracts. We really liked him a lot when we saw him with Othmar, even though we did not know his name until you told us. When you did, I compared the picture you posted with the video we had of Othmar's act and yes, it was the same tiger. He had very distinct striping, very heavy and very black. When did he pass away?
Mary Ann
Only Rewati, Mohini's daughter, was cross eyed, as far as I know, among the pure-Bengals. Thanks.
PS : Some white cubs, I think only two or three, developed cataracts at the Cincinnati Zoo. My dog has cataracts.
Paul,
Mohini is who I was thinking of. Assuming it is a trait associated with white, and knowing it is associated with Siberian, add those two together, and as I have argued vehemently over the years, isn't about inbreeding, as much as locking in that undesirable trait, as you can lock in a desirable trait.
Wade
Mary Ann,
I don't feel sorry for any captive animal that dies, unless it is a traumatic preventable death. I do feel remorse at loosing a colleague though. Kabul died in 2006. Is the video you referenced the commercially available one documenting the Tarzan Zerbini Circus?
Wade
Mary Ann-Which Maharaja was it who refused to shoot Mohan? Wade-crossed eyes are associated with albinism, and I guess reduced pigmentation. Siamese cats and albino ferrets are sometimes cross eyed. In fact amongst the founders of the Siamese breed many more of them were cross eyed. It has been bred out of them largely. It's seems as though crossed eyes has been a much worse problem in the Como Zoo/Sioux Falls lineage. I've never heard of any cross eyed white tigers in India. The Sports Illustrated article mentioned that Tony was blind in one eye.
Wade, it was an 8mm homemade movie that Joe transferred to VHS tape, since the Shrine Circus allowed cameras and video cameras. That was before we bought the digital camcorder that Joe transfers to DVD. It was not very close, and people were walking in front of us.
Mary Ann
Paul,
That is what I am suggesting. Add the Siberian trait of crossed eyes to the trait of albino crossed eyes and you have something more sure fired then "caused" by inbreeding, if that makes sense.
Last mention of Tony's "eye". Tony's eye was damaged in 1982 by an Englishman who brags about it to this day. That's all right, because Tony took his legs, or "me leg's" as he screamed laying on the arena floor that day. A tawdry side of the animal business, of which I battle to this day. As stated earlier many animals in this world did not deserve what they received. End of story, as there is now a lump in my throat.
Wade
Paul, the Maharajah who refused to shoot Mohan was Maharajah Ajit Singh of Jodhpur.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
I wish you had seen the Season of Tarzan Zerbini DVD. It would have helped you understand Kabul better.
Wade
Wade, is this DVD currently available anywhere?
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
Yes it is. I don't care for a copy, but if you type Tarzan Zerbini in it should let you to where it is available.
Wade
Wade-Do you mean that the Englishman actually lost both legs? I thought you said that Tony fathered orange cubs which were cross eyed, by unrelated orange females, on the Buckles Web Log. You said "Tony was not yet sired cross eyes, even occasionally on normal non carrier females." I believe there is prrof that Ural carried white genes, and if he did I think he probably fathered Bagheera and Frosty. Tony was bred with a tigress named Ranee, who was a daughter of Ural and Begum, and they had at least 12 white cubs, including Silver. If Ural did'nt carry white genes then where did Ranee's white genes come from? If Ural carried white genes then I think the white genes in this strain came in on the Siberian side of the family. There's no reason to think that Susie or Tony were descended from Mohan.
Paul,
No he didn't lose his legs, just severely injured. The German a few years earlier had a permanent crippling. I don't understand the quote, "Tony was not yet sired cross eyes, even occasionally on normal non carrier females." In regards to Ranee, you are "assuming" Ural was the father, and not Prince or Sabre. What is the proof that Ural carried white genes?
Regards,
Wade
The proof that Ural carried white genes is that his daughter Ranee carried them. I'm sure her white genes did'nt come from her mother Begum. I interpreted what you said on the Buckles Web Log, "Tony was not yet he sired cross eyes, even occasionally on normal non carrier gold females." to mean that Tony was not cross eyed, and yet he fathered cross eyed cubs by orange tigers which carried no white genes "non carriers", in which case the cross eyed cubs could only have been orange. I may have been wrong, but I thought that's what you mean't.
PS: I am not assuming that Ural was the father. John Cuneo said that he was, but I see your point. In that case there is no proof.
I'm not sure about Rhoni, but Baby and Kashmir were related to Tony. Mary Ann-Was Rhoni related to Tony? Ranee was.
Paul,
I am getting confused here. How are Baby and Kashmir related to Tony?
Who is Ranee? I know Rhoni, who would be related to Tony, if we assume Prince or Sabre were her father.
Wade
Wade-According to the information I have Kashmir was a daughter of Ural and Begum, and so was Ranee. If this is true then both of them would have been Tony's cousins since Ural was Tony's Siberian grand father's brother. Ural was Tony's great uncle. On the other hand if Prince or Saber was the father of either of them they would have been even more closely related to Tony. I think that Baby was a daughter of Sheba III, and that would make her Tony's first cousin. Did Tony have cubs with Baby? I have no information regarding this. The information I have says that Tony had three mates in his life. Regards Paul
Paul, I hope I can make our understanding clearer, not muddy the waters. You/our/my anonymous/imaginary friend compiled the information which he supposedly received from Hawthorn. In the very recent past, Wade has corrected some of those names and spellings for us, and I believe that this is the case with Ranee/Rhoni, that is they are one and the same animal. Mr. anonymous says that her parents were Ural and Begum, but I believe that Wade, who was there and knows much more about animal husbandry than any of the other principals involved, thinks that parentage attributed to Ural actually belongs to Prince or Sabre. I hope that I have helped, not added to the confusion.
Mary Ann
Who was Silver's mother Rhoni or Ranee? Silver's mother must have been related to Tony or they could'nt have produced white offspring together.
Paul,
Silvers mother was Rhoni. I don't know of any Ranee.
Wade
Paul,
In reference to Tony siring crossed eyes, I intended it to mean, that even on normal non carriers, can we attribute the crossed eyes to Tony/White or the factor of Siberian blood also carrying the gene. I hope that makes sense. What a great discussion.
Wade
Paul,
I would question anything listing Ural as a father.Kashmir I may mark with a question, Rhoni definitely not by Ural based on conformation/characteristics. What 3 females do you have information that were Tonys mates?
Wade
Wade, the three mates of Tony's that Paul was referring to are Kesari, Rhoni (Ranee), and Snow (Snowy), according to Mr. Anonymous.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
Wow. Kesari and Targa are the same animal. After she was born, given the 2 week wait to see if she survived, John asked me what I named them. I told him tentative names, and a few day's later said I had decided on Targa(after a Hugo Schmidtt elephant) instead of Kesari. He said, "I will tell Herta and she can change it on the records." You can now see the confusion of names, instead of something like numbers in a pedigree. There are other examples of that in Hawthorn records.
Wade
Wade, Kairi and Targa are one and the same, and she was supposedly Ari's mate. Kesari (very similar name) is Mohini's daughter who was mated to Tony at Cincinnati, producing Bhim, Sumita, Ari, Ika, and Kamala. She is listed as one of Tony's three mates, even though she did not belong to Hawthorn, and that contributes to the confusion.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
Kesari was the name initially given to Targa. The confusion with Kairi was the various nationality's/accents involved. We had a "Bubby" who was actually "Bobby" for a short example, and a "Baha/Barra who was actually Bahar. Add the accent to an assumed spelling. Look on the list is there a Ramsis(Ra)? I will explain that one to you when we meet, next week. Mystery surrounded by mystery, such is the legacy of the white tiger.
Wade
It has always been my understanding that Ural was Sheba III's uncle, which would make perfect sense "if" they were producing white cubs as John Cuneo claims.
Paul,
It would also make sense that Frank Sinatra was Sheba III's uncle, "if" I told you that he was the father of Frosty and Bagheera. You had to have seen Ural. He was one of the worst looking tigers I have ever seen. Very, very distinctive. Physically like nothing I had ever seen. On the other hand, Sheba, Prince and Sabre had many similar features. With Sabre being a bit bigger then Prince.
Wade
Wade, the DVD with Kabul and Othmar arrived, and I plan to watch it today.
Mary Ann
Wade-I think it would make less sense if Frank Sinatra was the father.
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