I gave Gargantua a separate place, as the "snarl" away's disturbed me. He was also stuffed and displayed. I was in the tweener generation, between Bushman/Phil and Snowflake. Any body know how he got the fierce snarl on his face?
Monday, April 28, 2008
While we are stuffing and displaying Gorillas lets not forget the legendary circus Gorilla
Posted by
Wade G. Burck
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27 comments:
Wade-I actually wrote how I think he got the snarl on the Buckles Blog. Somewhere I think I remember reading that when Gargantua was a baby being brought on the ship from Africa, someone with a grudge against the captain threw acid in Gargantua's face, if you can believe it. His mate belonged to an American woman who lived in Cuba and used to collect apes.
Paul,
I knew how he got the snarl. I was only wondering if that fact could be touted today, an the snarling gorilla displayed or would it be hidden. What era took more Charisma and animal skill to become renowned in, is the answer I am looking for.
Wade
Wade-I don't have any pictures of Pinkie the albino chimpanzee, but I found some on the internet at http://www.tacugama.com/pinkie.html It might not be a good idea for you to use them on your blog.
Paul,
Why? If credit is given.
Wade
Wade-I'm not a lawyer, but I think there's a chance you could be sued. In fact I know there's a chance you could be sued. I have a friend who's a lawyer in Toronto. I'll ask him. I know that Sarah Hartwell is very careful about what pictures she uses on her website. If a picture is a certain number of decades old anybody can use it. I'll tell you what my friend says.
Wade-I sent an e-mail asking my lawyer friend. I had a conversation about this with Richard Reynolds on the phone. He wanted to post a picture of the Maharaja of Rewa on the Buckles Blog from National Geographic. I said that would be a copyright infringement, but he doubted that anybody would do anything about it. I think the newspaper clipping he was kind enough to post for both of us must constitute a copyright infringement, but I guess chances are nobody from that newspaper will ever see it and if they did they might not care enough to do anything about it.
Paul,
That is kinda what I thought. Normally like in the case of somebody saying "the greatest show on earth", if it is a big deal, Felds attorneys will usually contact them, and say don't do it.
Do you know Toby Styles from the Toronto zoo? I trained some pigs for them, that I am looking for pictures of now. How about Bowmanville, have you been there lately?
Wade
Wade-The reply came back "sounds plausible" that you could get sued, from the lawyer. I don't think it would be worth taking a chance. Sarah Hartwell was happy to get photographs of white lions, for her website, which were taken by Mary Ann's husband Joe, since she had permission to use them.
Wade-I know of Toby Styles. I knew someone who interviewed him about white tigers for the CBC. I can't remember whether that was on TV or radio, but the interview was my idea. I don't think Toby Styles liked white tigers much. He said that the Maharaja of Rewa used a Siberian tiger in his white tiger breeding program. I'm sure that was'nt the case. I've never been to the Bowmanville Zoo, but I know of it. Is'nt Toby Styles with Zoocheck Canada?
Paul,
Was that a written or oral interview. He may have been misquoted and may have been referencing Tony as Siberian. Many zoos, of which I agree, frown on the crossbreeding of species. ie. Orangutang, camels, cats, elephants. Many zoo's could not justify white tigers unless, they were pure, and many had a problem even with the pure, and spending resources and cage space to an impure animal. I agree on the impure, but as Mohan occured naturally in the wild, I couldn't see that argument. What better example of genetic diversity and the loss of a gene pool.
Wade
Wade-The interview was oral. I remember some of the information the Toronto Zoo released about white tigers said that they tend to be larger than average because they are part Siberian, but I knew this was'nt the case, and that pure-Bengal white tigers are larger than average. Some of the hybrid orang utans were or are sterile, if I'm not mistaken, which shows they should probably be regarded as separate species. I know the Cincinnati and Columbus zoos wanted to pure breed white tigers. The Columbus Zoo asked a former United States ambassador to India to try and get a pure Bengal mate for Rewati, since she was a registered Bengal tiger. The Cincinnati Zoo got those two female white tigers from the Nandankanan Zoo through the IAE, and then could'nt get a male and could'nt get AZA authorization to breed them. I think the Western Plains Zoo in Australia had a white tiger which was pure Bengal.
Paul,
What year was the interview given. It still may have been in reference to the Siberian mix of Tony. Which if Cincinnati Columbus were that concerned with purity, why use Tony initially?
Wade
Wade-I think the interview was in 1990. It was definitely before 1993. I think that the zoos used Tony either because they did'nt know he was half Siberian or they wanted white tigers so badly they did'nt care.
Paul,
That's why I am asking, and I wanted to clear up the reference to Rewa tigers. The "patch" that they weren't pure, started after the birth at Cinncinati. It was a very valid "patch", unless some of the zoo's, and I am not including Toronto, didn't have the means to acquire one or build the housing for it. Kind of like Cirque Solei not using animals until they get to Europe, where horses are needed to sell tickets. And yes, Cincinnati/Columbus knew. Physically it was very obvious. So I suggest didn't care, which there is nothing wrong with.
Wade
Wade, I agree with you that some zoos didn't have the means to acquire a white tiger or build the housing for it, so they badmouth white tigers, saying that they are "inbred hybrids, trash tigers". I have thought that jealousy was behind it for some time. Who cares anyway, they aren't going back to the wild, and neither is it likely that any of the "pure" species are either. I'm sure that you are familiar with Katherine Latinen's chapter of "Tigers of the World", in which she suggests that white tigers be euthanized, and their "living space" be given to "pure" species. I think that this idea very much smacks of Nazism. She was from the Detroit Zoo at the time. We could also open up the whole AZA/SSP can of worms on the subject of white tigers, but I don't think I will go there just yet.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
Don't misunderstand. I agree, that white tigers are "inbred hybrid, trash tigers", if you are not talking about the Rewa tigers and decedents.
If your philosophy is to keep species pure, for the eventual release into the wild, stay true to your philosophy's, or you become a hypocrite. Look what happens in a circus debate. That's where jealousy come into play, when it is pointed out.
If that is not your philosophy, and I am not debating philosophy's, then display Tony sired offspring. If it is your philosophy, not displaying them is valid.
I was just taking offense to the statement that the Maharajah of Rewa, used a Siberian in his breeding program, and suggested that Mr. Styles was misquoted on where the Siberian blood came from.
Them not having them because of the zoo philosophy is valid. Even if I don't think the philosophy is valid. I am a very fair, and honest person, which again I hope explains the animosity at times.
Wade
Wade, I agree with your statement 100%, which if I am to understand it correctly is as follows:
A. If your philosophy is to keep species pure, for the eventual release into the wild, stay true to your philosophy and do not display (or breed) Tony's descendants.
B. If that is not your philosophy, then display (and even possibly breed) Tony's descendants.
Therefore, I accept your reasoning, even if I don't believe that the philosophy is valid. You have just shown what a fair and honest person you are by this reasoning.
However, my problem with the AZA/SSP is that individual zoos cannot decide for themselves whether their philosophy is A or B. They are forced to tout the party line which of course is A. If they defy the party line, consequences can be severe, including being stripped of AZA membership, exclusion from SSP programs, etc. With this kind of pressure, it has become increasingly difficult for me to see the animals that I want to see.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
I have already said the philosophy wasn't valid given the success, and the small number of attempts. But it gets them in the door. Sometimes giving people what they want to believe, and still generate revenue causes tightrope balances. What animals do you want to see, and what circus do you want to see? Can't have it both way's.
Wade
Did everybody hear about the pet lion which escaped in Quebec? He was just recaptured. He's a 150 lbs. cub named Boomer. I don't agree that people who don't like white tigers are jealous because some of the most anti-white tiger people were at the National Zoo, and at other zoos which had white tigers, including Toronto, which decided not to replace the white tiger when she died. I think the philosophy is that, regardless of whether animals will be reintroduced to the wild, zoos are for keeping wild animals which are representative of the wild. Since hybrids of Bengal and Siberian tigers are'nt found in the wild they feel they have no place in a zoo. Since only a small percentage of wild tigers were white they are also seen as unrepresentative of the wild. The same people object to white peacocks in the zoo for the same reasons. The Bristol Zoo had white tigers and phased them out just like the National Zoo.
Paul,
I also don't think jealousy is an issue, but often times personal philosophy's have to take a back seat to institutional philosophy's.
I don't think the Rewa tiger's should have been an issue as they did occur naturally in the wild. I also don't think Snowflake should have been an issue, unless he was crossed with, as an example, Eastern, Western and mountain gorillas in an effort to propagate the white gene. I feel that anything "manipulated" white has no place in a species pure situation.
Wade
I think it's sad that having a white baby proved to be a death sentence for Snowflake's parents. It would have been interesting to see if more white gorillas had been born in the wild. The man who acquired Snowflake for the Barcelona Zoo recieved a message which read: "Please send more white gorillas." Of course there were no more. I have often wondered if Franco ever visited Snowflake in the Barcelona Zoo.
Paul,
I think the Snowflake saga, was one of the saddest in the annuals of animal keeping. I personally think he ranked up there around "second comings" on an importance scale. I have a number of slides sent to me by the Gorilla curator a number of years ago, of which you noted on my wall in the SI article. I was sickened to see him in a concrete bunker with a yellow, orange, and red, "monkey bars" for entertainment. Video's I now see that later in his life there was a more appropriate habitat at his disposal. To bad he couldn't have lived at a place like Atlanta with Terry Maples studying him, or Woodland Park, in Seattle, or The North Carolina facility in Ashboro.
I do feel bad, and regret the life he had.
Wade
Sad also, that Mohan's mother and siblings were massacred at the time of his capture.
Mary Ann
Mary Ann,
It is all about changing for the better. History is to be learned from, not necessarily emulated.
Wade
Have you seen the PBS Nature documentary about Snowflake? http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/snowflake/
The gorilla has been reclassified into two species and four or five subspecies. The species are the Eastern Gorilla, which includes the Eastern Lowland Gorilla, the Mountain Gorilla, and maybe the Bwindi Gorilla. Then there's the Western Gorilla, with two subspecies, the Western Lowland Gorilla and the Cross River Gorilla. At one time they thought there might be pygmy gorillas just like they thought there might be pygmy elephants (in Africa). There have been news stories about giant chimpanzees which could be gorilla/chimpanzee hybrids.
Wade: I was just trying to determine whether "Massa" was the first gorilla in the United States or the Western Hemisphere. That reminds me, before I forget, I received an e-mail from a curator, at Miami Zoo, informing me that the Crandon Park Zoo never had a gorilla. I also thought that there was a gorilla, a live gorilla, brought into Dayton, Tennessee, for the "Scopes Monkey Trial." If you saw the documentary on The American Experience on PBS there was some old black and white film footage of a gorilla used, but I think that may have been "Jambo" at Basel Zoo. Apparently the Dayton Hotel had a "gorilla display" at the time of the trial, in 1925, but maybe that didn't include a live gorilla. "Gargantua" was in the U.S. in the 1930s. "Massa" was acquired by Philadelphia Zoo in 1935. (I hope I spelled that right.) There was a trained chimpanzee in Dayton for the trial named "Joe Mendi". I think we just had Darwin Day on Feb. 12, since Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln were born on the same day of the same year, it's around Presidents' Day. "Gargantua" does not seem to be included in the studbook, maybe because he was a circus gorilla. Frankfurt Zoo keeps the studbook. When I was looking through articles recently in the Google News Archive I came across a few I hadn't seen before about Baron Julius Von Uhl. One said that he was employed at Budapest Zoo. I also came across an article which stated that the only white tiger performing in a circus act in 1975 was named "Snow Storm", and I'm pretty sure the lady tiger trainer was, or later became, John Cuneo's wife. Do you know whether "Snow Storm" was "Bagheera"? Sincerely Paul
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