Wednesday, April 30, 2008
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A Blog designed for discussion of topics related to, but not limited to, Circus, Zoos, Animal Training, and Animal Welfare/Husbandry. Sometimes opening up the dialog is the best starting point of all. And if for nothing else when people who agree and don't agree, get together and start discussing it, it will open up a lot of peoples minds. Debate and discussion even amongst themselves opens a window where there wasn't one before.
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11 comments:
The Fall of 1950 we were in quarters in St. Louis st the St. Louis Arena complex close to the zoo and my Dad and I would go frequently and got to see and know Mike and Ben, Jules Jacot and Floyd "Smitty" Smith. All presentations were just great and so popular. Sure put the St. Louis Zoo on the map. All because of Mr. Verheillor, director of the zoo. Animal rights idiots would sure scream nowadays. Sad because it was and still is what the public enjoys. I am glad I saw it.
Johnny,
That is a good question. If it is what the public wants, and enjoys why is it gone. Also, why do you think there are no more high school, act in the circus today? Why do we go back 50 years to reference good ones? Who are your contemporaries today? I want this blog to be an open book, like the various circus museums, etc. you mentioned. Mr. Verheillor was instrumental in the promoting of Bushman wasn't he?
Who is John Helliott?
Best wishes,
Wade
John Helliott was a wild animal trainer of some note. I recall seeing an old litho of him with some leopards or, I can't recall for sure. Some cicus historians would easily pin point him and if you have the book, "wild animal trainers in america" believe he is in it somewhere. I remember visiting Clyde Beatty railroad show in about 52 and after the night show in the dark area the elephants were lined up ready for the hike to the train and standing there with them was an old man, John Helliott. Must have been a animal hand for Beatty on the show, or maybe training some cats for him. Kind of sad, but I guess that was his life and Beatty made a place for him. I would assume Roger Smith would know about him. Interesting that you asked. People have been confused and related him to me as though the spelling was a mis-print, but no indeed he was John Helliott and was a recognized animal trainer.
Obviously Minority groups in so many different areas get some political clout and cause so many problems and they pounce on [animal rights people] any incident and bring it to attention and it seems they are well established and have lots of money. We, in turn certainly do not police ourselves and leave us vulnerable. Yes we should have strick standards of conduct and operations, but who could put that together in our field? We have had PR spin that is not remotely effective. Also we hesitate to confront them. I felt bad that Mr. Cuneo with all his money seemed to capitulate rather than boldly challenging them and the rediculous operations of USDA that should be brought out in the open. Yes we have violaters that should be screened out, but they are few and do not represent the fine dedicated people in this field.
I believe that Cuneo had a state of the art facility for his elephants and the caretakers were always within a few yards or feet from the elephants twenty four hours a day. Also Asian elephants are domestic animals and beasts of burden, just like horses, camels, oxen, etc. and should not have to return to a wild state that they never came from in the firsst place. That sanctuary crap does not address the hands on daily care and examination that these animals need. I feel so sorry for those wonderful elephants. The bullys take over and so many suffer. Too bad it got so discombobulated. Maybe Mr. Cuneo exhausted his options. I don't know.
Johnny,
Don't feel bad for Mr. Cuneo. He spent a virtual fortune against USDA, and attempted to get assistance from other show owners. None was forth coming. Why don't we fight our own cause, like the rodeo and zoo's do? So what difference does his wealth make? How to we get out the "bandit's". They might be somebody friend, or your friend, or we knew their family. I do my part by pointing out false statements, like "insanity" in tigers. You can be a police man if you tell me what is subjugation and what is training. Why are whips(I don't care if you used one or not, I do) no longer used with elephants, and frowned on with cats, but are still used with horses? Who are your contemporaries? I will ask them. But you think I don't refer to your opinion enough. You won't answer me. Why are there no good high school act in America, like there were 50 years ago. Why are they still in Europe?
Wade
Johnny,
I never confused you and John Helliott. What confused me was your statements that Beatty trained his own cats, and never used a trainer. Lou Regan who spent some time at the Oaks told me about Helliott."Must have been a animal hand for Beatty on the show, or maybe training some cats for him." You see Johnny, we are writing factual history. May be now Mckennon won't be discredited for saying the same. You have verified, and maybe I am not disrespectful, just stopping the spin.
My opinion, the book you mention, like a lot of circus books is a crock. I gave my copy away to a fan, so I can't check.
I think if we address why the AR movement pounded us, we may have a way to stave them off. But it may get dirty, John. And that is going to make a lot upset.
Wade
Johnny,
I have been here for most of those 24 hours, and I didn't see what you are talking about. The problems kicked in with an elephant having it's feet soaked in a too strong of a solution. That and the 3 hands of elephants(one of which I posted here with my son) in a pen built for temporary housing of a male. They lived in it 24 hours day, going out in the wintertime for 30 minutes so the pen could be cleaned. 2 of the elephants he bought, one had a history of running, and one had attacked her long time trainer and his wife, doing elephant rides. The other was a former elephant from one of the elephant acts. Add all to the TB issues, and it was a tough deal to win. A lot of people help with the closing down of the Hawthorn elephants. All I could do was mop up.
Wade
I never said that Beatty always trained his own cats. Obviously we know of many who worked and trained for him and it obvious why he had them. He had alot of commitments in his ownership of his zoo and circus. He could afford to have trainers to top off the new recruits, just like you suggested about the broad training 40 stallions, or nthe stable of eighty horses. I often thought of a mass production liberty training biz. where I would have some trainers start the new ones in basics and then I could put it together. Would save alot of time nand believe me I would not be the least embarrased. Beatty knew exactly what he was doing.
My father told me that on a big opening night in Detroit that the cats got in a big fight and it was more than he could handle, so he called in the trainer Joe Walsh who was working for him at the time and between the two of them got it settled down and under control, so at the end of the act he brought Mr. WaLSH up on the hippodrome track, shook his hand and had the crowd acknowledge him as well. A side note. On the Red Show when Wolfgang worked, GGW had a red smock that he wore at the entrance of the cats in the arena that had on the back in huge letters, ANIMAL TRAINER. how about that.
Certainly Beatty could and did train his own cats. But putting 25 or30 together I doubt if any of his trainers did that. Thats when he took over and put his mark on the overall picture and did it quite well.
Johnnny,
I suggest that Joe Walsh is more of an example of saving the day, then Buckles suggested Henry Shroder was because he lifted the pyramid bridge off. If you want where you said he never used another trainer, and he trained his own cats, look for it a few days past or it is on Buckles Blog. Not just recently, but in the past. If you are going to write history, you have to be fact checked, and that's not wrong, and you can't just say things, or print what you want.
I don't agree with sanctuarys either. I think money should be spent for useful breeding animals. I think the sanctuary money's would be better spent addressing how they ended up in a sanctuary, and stopping that. He didn't exhaust anything, the big man got in trouble, and when nobody needed the hand the fed them, they fled. I fault was in the people he was feeding.
Johnny,
With all due respect, you have to answer the questions, and not just ask them.
Wade
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